The Coil Sprung (Land-Rover) Owner List Daily Digest

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Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 11:02:39 -0600
From: William Owen <IB011CA@smtpaoc.tsc.state.tn.us>
Subject:  RR tires - followup

As a follow up to the recent discussions concerning RR tires, 
yesterday I talked to a RR dealer technician who owns an 88 RR himself
and is a member of the Blue Ridge club.  He has installed 225/75 16 Mud
tires with no suspension mods and no problems.  His opinion of the new
XPC was as I expected.  Good for road, rain and snow,- barely
acceptable for mud / offroad, certainly not as good offroad as the old
244.  He did say some had gone on trail rides with the new tires and did
alright. 

As for me, I still havent decided whether to "risk" the 225/75 or even the
215/85, in say a BFG AT or Dunlop Rover, in order to gain better traction
and cut resistance.  Maybe I could still find a set of old 244s.

------------------------------

From: crash@merl.com
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 10:44:29 -0400
Subject: Disco lug nuts are 27mm!

Having _bent_ my Disco's lug wrench while rotating my tires,
I went on a quest for an improved unit, longer, better leverage,
etc. (I was literally jumping up and down on the lug wrench
handle to get some of the lugs off).

Well, the Disco lug nut is a 27mm hex.  Sears "Craftsman"
does not MAKE a 27mm socket.  Neither does Stanley.  And the
longest 1/2" drive "breaker bar" available is the same length
as the Disco's standard lug wrench.

Fortunately, Snap-On Tools does make a 27mm socket- regular, 
deep, or impact, take your choice.  Snap-On also makes a
30" extra-long breaker bar.  This is a *much* nicer way to 
do wheel work on a Disco, though the total ($97) is right
up there.

	- Bill

------------------------------

From: debrown@srp.gov
Date: 15 May 96 07:10:35 MST
Subject: lro list

FROM:  David Brown                           Internet: debrown@srp.gov
       Computer Graphics Specialist ~ S.R.P. ~ AM/FM - Graphic Records
       PAB219 (602)236-3544 -  Pager:6486 External (602)275-2508 #6486
I think it's down... I haven't seen a digest in quite some time now.

#=======#         _________         "What lies behind us and what lies
|__|__|__\___    //__/__|__\___    before us are tiny matters compared
| _|  |   |_ |}  \__/-\_|__/-\_|}  to what lies within us."
"(_)""""""(_)"      (_)    (_)                     Ralph Waldo Emerson
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 20:13:02 +0800
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From: Oscar <omont@mnl.mnl.sequel.net>
Subject: lro list

Is the lro list still down?  Or have I managed to unsubscribe myself?

Oscar
rental Disco
it will go off-road!!!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 09:39:56 -0700
From: Christopher Boese <cboese@co.san-bernardino.ca.us>
Subject: http://www.fluentnet.com/lr/mendo_badge/5.jpg

Hey Tom Walsh, where can I get one of these really cool things? And, I 
have to ask stupidly, what's Mendo Recce?

-- 
Christopher Boese
County of San Bernardino, California
Information Services, Information Systems Security Office
'95 beluga black Discovery V8i

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 10:02:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Brabyn <brabyn@skivs.ski.org>
Subject: Re: lro list

On Wed, 15 May 1996, Oscar wrote:

> Is the lro list still down?  Or have I managed to unsubscribe myself?

I assume it is because I haven't received anything from it yet. 

Cheers

John Brabyn

------------------------------

From: KKelly6788@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 13:09:04 -0400
Subject: Camel Trophy Disco Tires

>Does anyone know what tires were used on the CT RRs?  

I am not sure about the RR’s but I think they had the same 7"x16" Michelin
XCL Radials that the Camel Trophy Disco's have.  These are not DOT approved
for use on public roads in the U.S.  I have driven off road with them and
they are incredible tires.  While driving on a two lane highway with 1995
Camel Trophy team member Daphene Greene I commented how I could feel the
"squirm" and Daphene said  that she thought the tires were "scary on the
pavement".

>Were any suspension mods made?

I was told that the suspensions on all CT vehicles were basically stock
except for the extra protection.  In the next issue of the Aluminum Workhorse
I will have an article with more information and photos of the CT Disco's.

Kevin Kelly

------------------------------

From: KKelly6788@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 13:09:07 -0400
Subject: Used Range Rovers

>Can anyone give me an estimated price in the U.S. of an 1992 or 1993 
>Range Rover? Thanks in advanced.

Look at:  http://www.edmunds.com

This is the web site of the edmunds car price book company, it has a ton of
great information on used and new car prices.  You can get the dealer invoice
of any new car for free.  I used the information to get a great deal on a
truck for my Dad's business a couple months ago.

Walt Swain wrote:
>John, prices seem to vary a lot with region.  For example, there is a
>significant difference between San Francisco and Los Angeles.  The
>excessively rich seem to be flooding the market in LA. 

Remember the supply and demand lecture from Econ 101 in High School?  In the
September 1991 Four Wheeler test of the Range Rover Hunter they quote a RRNA
press release that says that 75% of all Range Rovers were sold in California,
New York,  and Florida.

Walt is right on when he says that the Los Angeles (and Orange County) is
great place to buy a used Range Rover.  I spent about $100 on long distance
calls, $110 on one round-trip plane ticket (make sure to ask a LOT of
questions) $55 on a one way plane ticket and saved about $2-$3 grand when I
bought my Range Rover in Los Angeles.

Kevin Kelly

------------------------------

From: KKelly6788@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 13:09:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Speedometer Needle Light

>I made this fix to my speedo a while back and
>then the tach went dark a few weeks later.  Next time I will try to find
>a way to "augment" the fit so they don't fall out again.  Let me know if
>anyone has a good idea for that.

As I have said I have done this twice, (the last time I looked at the clock
and I did it in under 45 minutes), but I can think of better things to do on
a Saturday morning.  I don't know much about fiber optics, so I was worried
that putting a little dot of glue on the side of it might reduce the amount
of light to the needle?  Will the fiber optic work as long as I don't block
the hole at the end of the fiber optic?

Kevin Kelly

------------------------------

From: debrown@srp.gov
Date: 15 May 96 10:16:32 MST
Subject: Disco lug nuts are 27mm!

FROM:  David Brown                           Internet: debrown@srp.gov
       Computer Graphics Specialist ~ S.R.P. ~ AM/FM - Graphic Records
       PAB219 (602)236-3544 -  Pager:6486 External (602)275-2508 #6486
I have (among others) a 1970 IIa 109 that came with a HUGE two piece lug
wrench. I asked the PO where he got it, and he said he had to go to a
truck stop to find one the correct size. This is the exact same size as
my '87 Range Rover, and I'm sure same as the Discovery. It is MUCH
heavier duty than the cheesy fold-up thing that came with my RR. (Which,
incidentally, broke the 2nd time I used it.)

Try a truck stop or truckers supply store for a lug wrench for the
Discovery.

#=======#         _________         "What lies behind us and what lies
|__|__|__\___    //__/__|__\___    before us are tiny matters compared
| _|  |   |_ |}  \__/-\_|__/-\_|}  to what lies within us."
"(_)""""""(_)"      (_)    (_)                     Ralph Waldo Emerson
=========================================================================
From: crash@merl.com
Organization: Mitsubishi Electric Research Laboratories, Inc.
        Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 10:44:29 -0400
Subject: Disco lug nuts are 27mm!

Having _bent_ my Disco's lug wrench while rotating my tires,
I went on a quest for an improved unit, longer, better leverage,
etc. (I was literally jumping up and down on the lug wrench
handle to get some of the lugs off).

Well, the Disco lug nut is a 27mm hex.  Sears "Craftsman"
does not MAKE a 27mm socket.  Neither does Stanley.  And the
longest 1/2" drive "breaker bar" available is the same length
as the Disco's standard lug wrench.

Fortunately, Snap-On Tools does make a 27mm socket- regular,
deep, or impact, take your choice.  Snap-On also makes a
30" extra-long breaker bar.  This is a *much* nicer way to
do wheel work on a Disco, though the total ($97) is right
up there.

        - Bill

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 13:37:34 -0400
From: "Gary D. Kleiman" <gkleiman@gemgroup.com>
Subject: Range Rover Speedometer

While some of you are thinking about speedometer problems, let me tell about
mine.  My 88 Range Rover speedometer malfunctions when the car is warm.  The
needle goes up to about 30-35 MPH and vibrates a bit but never goes much
higher.  When the car is cold and the outside temperature is also cold, the
speedometer works fine until the car heats up inside.  Thus, in the summer
heat, it doesn't work at all.  The odometer seems to work fine.  Any
suggestions would be appreciated.  Thank You.
Gary D. Kleiman
President
The Gemstone Group, Inc.
801 The Safeguard Building
435 Devon Park Drive
Wayne, PA 19087

610-971-9500
Fax: 610-971-1770

------------------------------

From: "B. Janine Morison" <morison@alumni.caltech.edu>
Subject: disco story
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 12:55:26 -0700 (PDT)

 A little over a month ago my husband and I rented a Disco for about
 5 days.  We took it to Joshua Tree (S. Calif desert).  I was driving
 while my husband was playing navigator.  Suddenly I stopped the vehicle,
 confused my husband looked up and I said, "I'm picking them up."  There 
 were two rock climbers hitching a ride with all there ropes and rock
 climbing gear.  (I have a policy to not ever pick up hitch hikers but 
 for some reason they looked safe and *tired* and wearing all their fancy
 stuff I broke my rule just for once.)

 Well, the disco had my german shepherd/akita mix dog in the back with
 hiking boots, big cooler and more outdoor "stuff."  I quicly shoved all
 our stuff to one side of the back seat, the dog was in the very back
 and these two tall guys slid in (with tons of stuff) and the first words
 out of their mouths was..."isent this the car they use for the camel
 trophy?... there is sooooo much room back here!"  They were beaming.
 I answered yeah, but CT uses diesel and manuals (Enterprise only had
 autos).  Then one guy said you know I knew someone who was in the CT.
 I was facinated and asked who "he" was that he knew.  This guy said,
 oh not a guy, a girl....then I blurted out, you know Daphne (sp?) Green?
 He then asked (in a shocked voice) you know her?  She is my ex-girlfriend!
 He then went on to tell us that he runs expedititions and she sometimes
 works for him taking people out.  

 Well, they were nice and gave us a brief tour of their camping area
 (which had new landcrusisers and VW's but no LR's I might add.)  We
 were given many thanks and they admitted that they were shocked we
 picked them up since we were driving a nice new car.  They figured
 only rock climbers in a VW van would be willing to give them a lift.

 On other thing, they did give us a brouchure.... (where did I put it!?!)

 In a world were most people don't have a clue what I am talking about
 when I mention the Camel Trophy, it was fun to actually be able to
 talk to someone who knows about it.

 -Janine
 morison@alumni.cco.caltech.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 15:00:15 -0600
From: William Owen <IB011CA@smtpaoc.tsc.state.tn.us>
Subject:  Re: RR tires - followup 

John, 

I'm glad I'm not the only one concerned about the tire choice and the
offroad ability of the new XPC.  Although I've heard lots of opinions both
ways, I'm beginning to believe that 225/75 will work with no problem. 
Just wish I could be sure.  

That of course leads to the next question, do I go with a bigger tire with
a more aggressive tread (ie:225/75 BFG AT) or do I go with the XPC. 
XPC is a sure fit and has the advantage of being less wide for better
snow traction, etc.   Better on road too I'm sure, although I've had BFGs
and liked them.  The BFG is a better tread (I think) but "may" not fit and is
too wide for my liking.  BFG may be more cut resistant. 

 I sure wish there was a review of the XPC somewhere, a FAQ or at
least a few more people who had tried them so that I could make a more
informed decision.

I need to decide quickly because 2 of my tires are pretty bad and I find
that even very light mud or wet grass gets me stuck.  My RR is great on
dry offroad areas, but Its got me scared to even look at so much as
damp ground that my Cherokee with good BFG ATs would not have
even slipped on.  This is no fun.

With the conversation about CT tires going on, I wonder what tires are
used by Rovers North and LR Academy on the RRs in their schools. 
What about the Great Divide expedition?  Did they all use the 244?   

Thanks for your response.
William

------------------------------

From: PurnellJE@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 16:17:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Used RR Prices

In a message dated 96-05-14 22:24:38 EDT, john.ng@domenet.com (John Ng)
writes:

>Can anyone give me an estimated price in the U.S. of an used 1992 or 
>1993 Range Rover? Thanks in advanced.
>-- 
>John Ng

A used car dealer here in madison has a used 1993 RAngie, a local Docta'
traded it in.   I looked at the price, but don't remember it, I'll call my
buddy and ask him what they want for it.  It is very clean, in case you are
interested.

Also, pardon my ignorance, but are used car loans availabe for 1988 and 1989
Rangies?  Any of you out there purchase one of these on credit?  I forget how
far back a bank will loan on a car, and maybe because of its value, they'll
go back farther on a more expensive model? 

Inquiring minds need to know...

John.
Madison, WIsconsin.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 16:18:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chris Haslam <haslam@alcor.concordia.ca>
Subject: RR Speedometer Illumination

Re Craig Meuchel's problem:

The speedometer needle is illuminated via a fibre optic cable.

It gets dislodged from its holder, behind the MPH marking. To fix it, 
remove the binnacle. The MPH bit pulls off.

...chris

------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 15:49:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: "David C. McCormack" <dmccorma@execpc.com>
Subject: Toyota Saves the Day!

        While I suspect that this will subject me to some ribbing, John
Purnell thought the list may enjoy hearing of my little (mis) adventure.

        Recently I took a trip to some public land near LaFarge, Wisconsin
to give my Disco a little exercise.  The conditions were wet so I turned
back on several trails and I didn't even get to the point where I left the
valley floor and hit trails that climb some of the hills.  I settled on a
trail that was just two green lines running through some rolling grassy
meadows.  It was very pretty - even passed near two small lakes that would
make an ideal picnic spot.  In spots the trail was quite rolling, but it
never got intense - just good fun until . . . THE LOW SPOT.  The trail
dipped down into a small low area and I could see ruts there with some water
in them.  However, the muddy section was at most twenty feet long.  So I
picked up a little speed and plowed through with almost no tire spin until
the very end of the hole.  I went on for some time until the trail entered
another low area and decided to turn around.  On the way back through the
THE LOW SPOT, the front end dug in a bit and with the loss of momentum I got
stuck and sank to the axles.  
        There was one small bush/tree within winch cable distance.  I hooked
on and winched myself out of the hole.  But the tree was to the right and to
reach high ground I had to pull myself through some deep ruts.  The right
side of the vehicle sank deeply into ruts in the soggy soil.  Then, the
little tree began to come out of the ground.  Now winchless, I turned my
attention to the hi-lift jack.  I hiked 200 yards to the nearest woods and
found half a dead tree which I dragged back to the truck, limbs and all.  I
then took out my axe and hacked it into small pieces and proceeded to jack
the truck up and put wood under the tires.  I also took out the shovel and
dug out the front of the vehicle which had dug in.  I also deflated the
tires.  By now I was EXHAUSTED, muddy and wet from the soggy soil.  The soil
was laced full of roots and very difficult to dig.  Still, despite all the
effort the truck would not move, nor would rocking or turning the wheels
make any difference.  I jacked it up again and put more wood under the tires
and still no luck.  By now I had been at this for three hours with no sign
of other human life (and beginning to wonder how this adventure was going to
end).  I finished chopping the tree into pieces and was in the process of
getting them under the truck for a third attempt when a Toyota 4x4 pickup
drove by and stopped:^)  He hooked to the winch cable and we got the truck
free after two pull attempts.
        I was disapointed with how easily the vehicle became stuck in soft,
mushy soil of the low spot.  I'm sure larger tires would make a difference.
It may be that wet, muddy soil without a hard bottom underneath is the
vehicle's ultimate weak spot and something to be avoided.  Certainly, if a
suitable tree was nearby or I was equipped with a land anchor (yet another
thing to get) I would have gotten out fine.
        It was fun getting the truck good and muddy. I was actually turkey
hunting in the area and used the Disco extensively for scouting and getting
about the farm on which I hunted.  Other than the mushy soil of the low
spot, it performed admirably - really adding to the overall enjoyment of the
outing.

Dave McCormack
95 Disco, Wisconsin "Mack x4"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 14:26:01 -0700
From: matts@cacilj.caciasl.com (Matt Snyder)
Subject: Help me find a rattle

I had a similar rattle, and finally found it.  I discovered that the rattle 
was repeatable on a certain washboard road near my house, so I hung out the 
window until I isolated the area, then I jacked it up and started hitting 
things with a rubber mallet until I reproduced the exact sound.

Cautions:  1) There are lots of things down there that make very similar 
sounds, and 2) There are a few things that do not want to be hit with a 
mallet or bent.  In particular, there is a fiberboard heat shield under the 
engine mount, coated with a silvery substance, and it looks like metal, but 
when you bend it, guess what?  And the replacement part I paid through the 
nose for was not an exact fit.

In my case, the rattle was the front left spring.  For whatever reason, one 
of the loops near the top vibrates against the next higher loop.  There's 
nothing I can do about it.  It's annoying, but it's slightly less annoying 
now that I know what it is.

-Matt
'88 RR

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 14:46:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Brabyn <brabyn@skivs.ski.org>
Subject: Re: Used RR Prices

In round numbers, Edmunds gives the wholesale and retail prices of $22,000
and $25,000 for a 92 RR, with another $1000 for County models. 

Also,
$27,000 and $30,500 for 93 County, 
$29,500 and $33,000 for 93 County LWB.

> >Can anyone give me an estimated price in the U.S. of an used 1992 or 
> >1993 Range Rover? Thanks in advanced.
> >-- 
> >John Ng

> Also, pardon my ignorance, but are used car loans availabe for 1988 and 1989
> Rangies?  Any of you out there purchase one of these on credit?  I forget how
> far back a bank will loan on a car, and maybe because of its value, they'll
> go back farther on a more expensive model? 

No problem re the financing.

Cheers

John Brabyn
89RR

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 17:42:48 -0500
From: Jeff & Laura Kessler <lmkessler@srnet.com>
Subject: Front end adjustment

I have found the outside edge of the right front tire starting to cup,
suggesting that it is time to check/adjust the toe in.

Has anybody done this at home or is it best left for the shop with the right
equipment to measure within a few millimeters between tires?

Also what kind of life do tires usually have on the front of RRs?  Both my
front ones are wearing much faster than the rears.

Thanks.

Jeff Kessler
1988 Range Rover (with 205-16 Michelin 224s)
Newport NH USA   603-863-7883

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 16:06:49 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Douglas C. Marbourg" <marbourg@lanl.gov>
Subject: Re: Toyota Saves the Day!

Thanks David!  It's great to here real adventure stories rather than strictly
tech talk all the time!

At 03:49 PM 5/15/96 -0500, you wrote:
>        While I suspect that this will subject me to some ribbing, John
>Purnell thought the list may enjoy hearing of my little (mis) adventure.
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
>to give my Disco a little exercise.  The conditions were wet so I turned
>back on several trails and I didn't even get to the point where I left the

Doug Marbourg, '94 NAS D90 #1123

Santa Fe, New Mexico
(505)665-1729 work
(505)983-3574 home
marbourg@lanl.gov work
marbourg@juno.com home

------------------------------

From: "Robert Watson (CNA)" <a-robw@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: RE: Disco shocks
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 15:17:43 -0700

I talked to the dealer today and they said "of course it'd be covered
under the warranty" so I'll have that added to the list when I take it
in for the 22.5K service. The OME's will have to wait until the warranty
expires (next March by my calculations). Thanks for all the advice.

-- Bob W.
>----------
>From: 	GElam30092@aol.com[SMTP:GElam30092@aol.com]
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 18 lines)]
>going in!
>Gerry

------------------------------

From: KKelly6788@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 18:23:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Camel Trophy Disco Tires

I wrote:

>> I was told that the suspensions on all CT vehicles were basically stock
>> except for the extra protection.  

Tom Walsh wrote:

>I looked under the vehicles at the Hollister tryouts... Those 
>springs as I said early were not stock!! What they say and what I saw 
>must be different things! ???

and Jeff Gauvin wrote:

>I think they used Defender 130 rear axles, too. So, apart from the Tdi
>diesel engine, the snorkel, the skid plates, the D130 rear axle, the
>winch, roofrack, wheels and tires, they're EXACTLY the same as the Discos
>you can buy at your friendly neighborhood LRNA dealer :-)

I hope you notice I wrote "I WAS TOLD  that the suspensions on all CT
vehicles were basically stock"  I know the marketing guys must put pressure
on LRNA to tell people that a CT Disco is almost exactly like a SE7 you and I
can buy at our neighborhood Land Rover Centre.  What I should have wrote was
"As far as I could tell it was a stock Disco Tdi suspension with extra
protection"  Living in N. Cal the only time I have seen  a stock Tdi is in
the magazines.  I assumed that it would have different springs just like a
stock D90 often gets different springs if a winch is added or extra weight is
going to be kept in the back.  The point I was trying to make is that the CT
Discos don't have a wild custom suspension with multiple shocks sticking
through the hood like a Baja 1000 truck or a full custom tube frame like the
Toyota stadium race trucks.

Kevin Kelly

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 18:26:00 -0700
From: Russ Burns <burns@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: RR tires - followup 

I have abused the 225/75 BFG tires on my Range Rover with no problems.
Been off road in Moab, Colorado with no problems.
(five adults, and gear in moab)
Russ

At 03:00 PM 5/15/96 -0600, William Owen wrote:
>John, 
>I'm glad I'm not the only one concerned about the tire choice and the
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 33 lines)]
>Thanks for your response.
>William

------------------------------

From: debrown@srp.gov
Date: 15 May 96 16:04:02 MST
Subject: Front end adjustment

FROM:  David Brown                           Internet: debrown@srp.gov
       Computer Graphics Specialist ~ S.R.P. ~ AM/FM - Graphic Records
       PAB219 (602)236-3544 -  Pager:6486 External (602)275-2508 #6486

Yeah, sounds like toe-in. I bent a steering part on the back side of the
tire (where the steering shock absorber thing is) that I was able to
bend back to a close proximity of it's original shape. Bent parts can
have a large affect on tire life. Check for this, also for low tire
pressure. Front tires wearing faster can also be due to making turns
fast. How's your driving habits? Who else drives the RR? (Have a teenage
son? I do!!)

I would at least check it out myself first, and try to verify what's up.
Get the measurements front and rear of the tire from... (anyone care to
look it up?) and measure for yourself just to see. If you frequently
romp around in it, you may decide that it's not worth a great deal of $$
to have it done, anticipating knocking it out of alignment again.

Then again... Other than the bent/straightened track rod that I did,
it's been very consistent and has not needed further adjustment. And I
tend to get fairly abusive with my '87 RR. (I've caught air under the
tires and have gone WAY too fast over many a hill!) Maybe it would be
worth having it done right.

Bad shocks can also cause tire cupping.

Good luck!

Dave (bonzai) Brown

#=======#         _________         "What lies behind us and what lies
|__|__|__\___    //__/__|__\___    before us are tiny matters compared
| _|  |   |_ |}  \__/-\_|__/-\_|}  to what lies within us."
"(_)""""""(_)"      (_)    (_)                     Ralph Waldo Emerson
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 17:42:48 -0500
X-Sender: lmkessler@srnet.com (Unverified)
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: Jeff & Laura Kessler <lmkessler@srnet.com>
Subject: Front end adjustment

I have found the outside edge of the right front tire starting to cup,
suggesting that it is time to check/adjust the toe in.

Has anybody done this at home or is it best left for the shop with the right
equipment to measure within a few millimeters between tires?

Also what kind of life do tires usually have on the front of RRs?  Both my
front ones are wearing much faster than the rears.

Thanks.

Jeff Kessler
1988 Range Rover (with 205-16 Michelin 224s)
Newport NH USA   603-863-7883

------------------------------

From: "Robert Watson (CNA)" <a-robw@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: RE: Toyota Saves the Day!
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 15:53:19 -0700

Quite a story.  Confirming, once again, one of Murphy's laws which
states: "the nearest winch anchor is always cable length + 10'"

I don't know if you thought about it at the time, I know my brain turns
to applesauce when I get stuck and become helpless, but if you are
digging and cutting anyway, you can use a tree (such as the one you
pulled out) or even the spare tire as an anchor by burying it in the
ground. More work than a "pull-pal", but less embarrasing than being
rescued by a toyota :-). Another trick is to pound/bury several tree
branch sized stakes in a row and connect them with a rope, tow-strap or
cable, anchoring the winch cable to the one closest to the vehicle.

If all that fails, then it's time to inflate the pontoons.

Happy trails
    _____
   /|__|_\__(|                           Bob Watson
  |   |   |  \                 a-robw@microsoft.com
  |---|___|___\____      Mountlake Terrace, WA, USA 
  |  _|=  |=  |o_  }\                
 [|_/_ \__|___|/_\_}|    '95 Beluga Black Discovery
    \_/        \_/                            N7UMU

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 19:20:51 -0500
From: Jeff & Laura Kessler <lmkessler@srnet.com>
Subject: Re: Front end adjustment

At 04:04 PM 5/15/96 MST, you wrote:
>FROM:  David Brown                           Internet: debrown@srp.gov
>       Computer Graphics Specialist ~ S.R.P. ~ AM/FM - Graphic Records
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 12 lines)]
>pressure. Front tires wearing faster can also be due to making turns
>fast. How's your driving habits? Who else drives the RR? (Have a teenage
>son? I do!!)
I am the fast driver here, but I would expect cupping on the left tire also.
Tire pressures are checked regularly, I have one with a slow leak so that
one is every day or so.

>I would at least check it out myself first, and try to verify what's up.
>Get the measurements front and rear of the tire from... (anyone care to
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
>romp around in it, you may decide that it's not worth a great deal of $$
>to have it done, anticipating knocking it out of alignment again.
I plan to check it tonight and then Friday have a mechanic look at it and if
needed (toe not the problem) have it checked on a fancy computerize
alignment machine next week.  A few months back after haveing the back end
jacked out of a deep rut, I found the steering frozen (front end resting on
leakage).  Once I backed the front out it was fine.

What about worn bushings, could they cause this wearing?

>Then again... Other than the bent/straightened track rod that I did,
>it's been very consistent and has not needed further adjustment. And I
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 8 lines)]
>worth having it done right.
>Bad shocks can also cause tire cupping.
New Bilsteins last fall.

>Good luck!
>Dave (bonzai) Brown
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 9 lines)]
>"(_)""""""(_)"      (_)    (_)                     Ralph Waldo Emerson
>=========================================================================

Thanks for the suggestions.

Jeff Kessler
1988 Range Rover
Newport New Hampshire USA   603-863-7883

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 14:21:23 -1000
From: "ROGER HALL: HNL M.E. GROUP" <ROGER_H@verifone.com>
Subject: used RR financing

>Also, pardon my ignorance, but are used car loans availabe for 1988 and 1989
>Rangies?  Any of you out there purchase one of these on credit?  I forget how
>far back a bank will loan on a car, and maybe because of its value, they'll
>go back farther on a more expensive model? 

>Inquiring minds need to know...

>John.
>Madison, WIsconsin.
 

John, I financed my '89 RR through BMW.  They have very favorable terms
available and try to accomodate potential landrover owners.

At least from my experience, anyway.

Roger Hall
roger_h@verifone.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 May 96 10:53:02 EST
From: James Carley <carley@manly.civeng.unsw.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Front end adjustment

At 17:42 15/05/96 -0500, Jeff wrote:
>I have found the outside edge of the right front tire starting to cup,
>suggesting that it is time to check/adjust the toe in.

The outside passenger side front tyre (L in Oz) does tend to wear most 'cause
it's fighting the road camber most of the time, that is, on average
the vehicle needs to be turned slightly towards the centre of the road
to maintain a straight line.

>Has anybody done this at home or is it best left for the shop with the right
>equipment to measure within a few millimeters between tires?

The following method has worked for me and my measurements have been validated
by a check with proper wheel alignment equipment, cause I still had
some doubts.  I think it was originally known as the "Trammel Rod Method".

Firstly the tie rod ends on the track rod, wheel bearings and swivel bearings
must have minimal slop.

You'll need a fairly level paved area, 2 fine nails or pins, a good tape 
measure and an assistant.

Put vehicle on level paved area with wheels straight ahead and place a fine
nail/pin roughly at the height of the axle centreline on the backwards facing
part of each front tyre tread.  That is, penetrate the tread slightly with
the pins so they stay there and are reasonably square to tread surface.  
The pins don't have to be exactly at axle centreline - choose a height 
which is clear of radius arms etc 'cause you have to fit a tape between
them - but as close as possible.

Measure the distance between the pins accurately.  Best way is to have
assistant line up 100 mm mark as start point and line up the gradations
of the tape with centreline of pin. Record distance.  You should be able to
measure to within 0.25 to 0.5 mm accuracy.

Roll the vehicle FORWARD so that the pins are roughly at the height of
the axle centreline facing forwards.  Measure as above.

Toe OUT is front distance minus back distance.  For a 110, spec is
1.2 to 2.4 mm of toe OUT from memory.
(listed in front suspension specs of workshop manual).
Adjust by loosening clamps on track rod and rotating track rod with vice grips
or stilsons.  There is a different handed thread on each end and toe is quite
sensitive to rotation.

Repeat and check until you're satisfied.

>Also what kind of life do tires usually have on the front of RRs?  Both my
>front ones are wearing much faster than the rears.

For a 110 I get ~80000 km (50000 miles)if they wear out rather than get
destroyed, but others I talk to range from 50000 to 100000 km. 
However 110's have larger diameter tyres = less revs per km.

Regards

James Carley
Sydney, Australia
'85 110

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 21:21:01 -0400
From: rover@pinn.net (Alexander P. Grice)
Subject: Test

Sorry for the waste of bandwidth, but the major has been playing tricks on 
me (other that going AWOL....)     rro

      *----"Jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary"----*
      |               A. P. (Sandy) Grice                   |
      |     Rover Owners' Association of Virginia, Ltd.     |
      |    1633 Melrose Parkway, Norfolk, VA 23508-1730     |
      |  E-mail: rover@pinn.net  Phone: 804-622-7054 (Day)  |
      |    804-423-4898 (Evenings)    FAX: 804-622-7056     |
      |                                                     |
      *----1972 Series III 88"------1996 Discovery SE-7 ----*

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 22:40:53 -0500
From: Jeff & Laura Kessler <lmkessler@srnet.com>
Subject: Re: Front end adjustment

At 10:53 AM 5/16/96 EST, you wrote:
>At 17:42 15/05/96 -0500, Jeff wrote:
>>I have found the outside edge of the right front tire starting to cup,
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 63 lines)]
>Sydney, Australia
>'85 110
James

It is a great way to check the toe out!  Thanks.

I used thumb tacks and since the only assistant at home right now is 2 1/2
years old and asleep in bed, I used string.  I put a loop on one end to
beheld by one tack and ran the string under the head of the tack on the
other tire.

Instead of measuring all the way from the other tire, I put a knot in the
string near the second tire and measured the few inches to the tack.  easy
to roll the vehicle back and forth to verify the measurements.

Any way, I have about a millimeter of toe IN.  The locking clamps loosened
up fine on my track rod but the adjustable section did not care to turn
freely.  When I saw I was twisting against the ball joint next to it I
stopped.  It can go another 30 miles Thursday before going to the shop
Friday morning.  I think I have finally learned that 10:30 PM is not the
best time to start trying to move the immovable object when I need it to get
to work the next morning.

BTW, the toe out for the RR is the same as you recall for the 110.

Thanks again.

Jeff Kessler
1988 Range Rover
Newport NH USA   603-863-7883

------------------------------

From: JEPurnell@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 23:30:32 -0400
Subject: D90 for sale.

With great sadness, and not a little exasperation, I unfortunately need to
sell my Defender.  I've held out as long as I could, but my job scene hasn't
done much for my ability to keep the truck, and alas, I must temporarily go
Roverless.  (Hence my questions on the used Rangies, as I see that as my next
Rover when my situation comes around.)  And besides, vis a vis Murphy's Law,
I know that as soon as I sell the truck, I'll get a great job... sigh.

But then a Rangie!! 

If you know anyone looking, my truck is pristine and relatively low miles
(mainly highway).  I could probably deliver it too, as I've got the time...
:>).

John P.
Madison, WI

John Purnell, 608-251-9121
JEPurnell@aol.com, Madison, Wisconsin.
1994 D90, #1336, 17,000 miles
Red, brush bar, rear seat & belts
Factory installed A/C
(as opposed to dealer installed... NO HACKING!)
Factory Repair Manual, Aftermarket repair manual,
Full Factory warranty, and 7yr/100K extended warranty(transferable),
Synthetic Gear/Engine Oil, 
'95 style Besstop, Surrey top, Full Tonneau cover
Radiator Muff, Perfect, Calif. Car(only a few months in the snow)
$29,500

------------------------------

From: 73363.427@CompuServe.COM
Date: 16 May 96 00:00:28 EDT
Subject: Re: Camel Trophy Disco Tires

>> I think they used Defender 130 rear axles, too. So, apart from the Tdi
diesel engine, the snorkel, the skid plates, the D130 rear axle, the
winch, roofrack, wheels and tires, they're EXACTLY the same as the Discos
you can buy at your friendly neighborhood LRNA dealer :-) <<

There was a list of the mods posted to one of these list a few months back. From
what I recall it was just the *springs* from a 130 that were used on the CT
Discos. The axles themselves are probably the same anyway. The springs were
probably needed because of all the extra weight from the
rollcage/roofrack/cargo, besides they weren't worrying about a smooth ride.
  
     -------------------       
    |         |         |
    | _ _ ____|____ _ _ |       Rob Dennis
  O |[___|>>>>>>>>>|___]| O     73363.427@Compuserve.com
   \____===_=====_===____/      Atlanta, GA USA
   |oo   |(_)###(_)|   oo|      (404) 875-4537
   |     |   ###   |     |      
   |     | ####### |     |      1972 SerIII 88
   |_____|_#######_|_____|      1990 RangeRover
  [_______________________]
     EEEI           EEEI

Send By: Rob Dennis 73363.427@Compuserve.com
 On 15-May-1996

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 00:27:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: rovah@agate.net (John Cassidy)
Subject: RR Exterior Spare Tire Mount?

I don't think this is a duplicate post...sorry in advance if it is!  Does
anyone know of an exterior, rear mounted, spare tire carrier for the RR?
I'd really like to have that extra room inside.  Has anyone modified a tire
carrier from a different vehicle?
     Glad to have the digests back!  Two weeks of solitude! ;-)

Cheers!  John Cassidy  Bangor, Maine

John Cassidy
Bangor, Maine USA

2 Wheels: Ducati M900, Velocette Thruxton, Moto Morini 350S
4 Wheels: 1995 Discovery, 1987 Range Rover, 1966 Series IIA

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 08:58:16 -0500
From: Sanjay Prasad <Prasad@ba-iplaw.com>
Subject: Used Car Loans

When I bought by '90 RR last year I looked into financing it and found that
it can be done, but that banks (at least the ones I looked at) were
charging 2 points higher for used car loans than for new car loans,
which made the rate close to 12%.  

------------------------------

From: Chris_Browne@US014-BOSTON-MINET.CCMAIL.CompuServe.COM
Date: 16 May 96 09:15:29 EDT
Subject: RR tires Rovers North etc

     
     On the RN Range Rover and Discovery they use BFG  Tracedge size 225/75 
     x 16. Many other people use the 225 size on RR so don't worry about 
     them they fit.
     
     While up there over the Presidents day w/e I asked Lanny how the 
     standard disco tires would handle the snow/ice that we were playing 
     in. Answer not very well. 
     
     Regards
     chris
     

------------------------------

  END OF LAND ROVER OWNER DIGEST 
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