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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 09:07 GMT0
From: srawlings@cix.compulink.co.uk (Stephen Rawlings)
Subject: == No Subject ==
I would like to see more TRF chaps on the RoW List and hopefully some BDS
CTC and even BHS as they have so much to gain. It would be a shame if it
was predominently 4wd. (which it isnt)<<
Can I send the details to the TRF then please? Also, consider posting
details to some of the usenet groups in the .uk section. Possibly the
best place would be to have the details put on the TRF web site?
Steve Rawlings
------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:18:42 GMT
From: Owen Sayers <central4x4@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Open or closed list?...halftone reply
In message <memo.264892@cix.compulink.co.uk>
halftone@cix.compulink.co.uk (Tony Sleep) writes:
> In-Reply-To: <1997030801073171017@zetnet.co.uk>
> > Again, I agree. However.... whether WE see them as seperate from
[ truncated by list-digester (was 6 lines)]
> > basically
> > against my nature, it has to apply).
> Whilst I accept this happens, it is misperception - and what's more, most
> often an opportunist expression of prejudice. Their agenda is to stop all
[ truncated by list-digester (was 6 lines)]
> point is that there's simply no way to give them what they want except by
> capitulating.
As far as the established opponenets of laning or concerned, you're right.
However I was thinking more of the general public perception - those
who don't know the ins and outs of the laning situation, and whose
views on almost everything are the ones given to them by the press -
remember when people thought that suzuki's fell over everytime they
went round a corner...mind you, come to think of it..... ;-)
Its an established fact that anything that gets wide public interest but
in reality affects only a small minority of the electorate is fair game for
any publicity seeking politician to stick his 2p worth into - most often
with an unwelcome result fot the minority group involved. Its happen(ing/ed)
with bull bars, and it could oh so easily happen with laning. That was
my concern.
> > Certainly we shouldn't accept
> > the blame for the actions of those who will misuse lanes, or ride/drive
[ truncated by list-digester (was 7 lines)]
> > problems - even if only in overuse (30 or so lanes in a whole
> > country....??)
> It comes down to this : is it more of a risk to try and keep lanes secret,
> so that few people use them, and they can be closed, or at least
[ truncated by list-digester (was 9 lines)]
> option. In either case, the result is that the route is unavailable to
> those who want to, and have a legal right to use it.
I see your point here, however - in Scotland at least - the first and second
issues are closely linked. Because the statutory aspects of laning don't
really exist north of the border, it would be incredibly easy to destroy
laning up here. Have one case which removed a right of way, then use
that as a stated case for all others, and in a matter of months
they're gone....
> The question then becomes : well WTF are we going to do about it?
And its a good question - I'm certainly not against some form of direct
action - providing the same condition as you specified existed. However,
I personally am always going to be a loser. As a commercial 4x4 centre
operator, both leisure laners and landowners tend to misinterpret my
interest as being based on fiscal grounds. (Its not - I don't use lanes
commercially, and wouldn't ever unless there was some method of
contributing to their upkeep which didn't find its way into the central
government coffers)
> > You're right, but the actions of the few, can and often do affect the
> > interests
> > of the many.
> Ah, you're _really_ talking about landowners here you know :)
Probably, but you'll understand that if some louts in a 4x4 or on a bike
rip a surface up and scare other users of a lane, it does affect our
position....if only with regard to the "undecided/uninformed" public
who read about it in their local paper or on TV.
> > I see little merit in giving the book of matches to the guy
> > who's trying to burn down your house.
[ truncated by list-digester (was 7 lines)]
> problem. I also believe that there's something about motorcyclists, that
> many are not great joiners of anything - I am certainly not.
It certainly wasn't my intention to suggest that "unaffiliated users"
- if that term covers anyone whose not in a club or organisation of
any type, but who operates on their own or with friends - are any less
lane friendly than club members. Indeed I belong to only one club
(Scottish Off Road Club). They don't lane - but then few in Scotland
do. One of the clubs who does "Green Road Runs" uses private roads
and takes 50+ vehicles on trips over them. They are very keen to find
and use the public routes to do their runs on. IF they did so in the same
manner as they use the private roads and I quote "we couldn't
gaurantee that we'd be able to keep the numbers down, it depends
on how many turned up, if five came then fine, if fifty come then they'll
still want to drive the lane". Then there would be problems.
So...it is never my intention to support the "if you want to lane you'll
have to join our club" lobby. Whilst there is some fantastic work done
by the various clubs and groups concerned with laning, it's as wrong
to limit use of the lane to their members and supporters as it is to
prevent vehicular use without legitimate and legal reasons.
> > Hooliganism may not be our
> > responsibility - except if we're the hooligan - but the consequences of
[ truncated by list-digester (was 8 lines)]
> > thefts with misuse or illegal practices
> > and a couple of years for forever, and you'll see my point.
> I do, but this is simple Darwinism really. "For a couple of years" is the
> operative phrase. Trailing is never going to be more than a tiny, minority
[ truncated by list-digester (was 7 lines)]
> every known lane in The Sun tomorrow, you'd see more than a short-lived
> surge of interest.
Of course we wouldn't, you're quite correct here. The point with laning
tho' is that the activity wouldn't recover after a year or two. The lanes
would have been downgraded by then, and lost forever. That's my
concern...that any damage done for short term benefits will have a
long term or permanent affect.
Owen.
--
--------------------------------------------------
Central 4x4 Outdoor Leisure Off-Road Driving Centre
3 Clover Place, Bo'ness, West Lothian, EH51 0QW
(+44) 01506 516448, (+44) 0370 471277
Web Page: http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/central4x4/
--------------------------------------------------
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Subject: Re: Victoria Laneing Society
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 00:09:10 GMT
From: user@rsltd.softnet.co.uk (adrian pickersgill)
> The Second Monthly General meeting of the Victoria Laneing Society, RoW
> subsection, (City Toffs division) meets in the Jugged Hare (we think) at 6.30
[ truncated by list-digester (was 6 lines)]
> Bridge Road, second pub on the left. Anyone willing to buy a round welcome.
> Chris
Dare one ask what or who the Victoria Laneing Society, RoW
subsection, (City Toffs division) is or are?
Do you have to roll your trouser leg up to be a member?
And what type of RoW society is it were you have to walk to get there, isnt
there a BOAT, RUPP or UCR short cut?
Adrian ;-)
------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 18:12 GMT0
From: halftone@cix.compulink.co.uk (Tony Sleep)
Subject: Re: == No Subject == (publicising the list)
> Can I send the details to the TRF then please? Also, consider posting
> details to some of the usenet groups in the .uk section. Possibly the
> best place would be to have the details put on the TRF web site?
Good thinking Steve.
Tony Sleep
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 18:12 GMT0
From: halftone@cix.compulink.co.uk (Tony Sleep)
Subject: Re: WTF is GLEAM?
Uurrgh:(
> They got the DOE to issue the
> Vehicles on Byways consultation doc last year. If you or anyone wants a
[ truncated by list-digester (was 6 lines)]
> will post
> it on the list.
If possible the latter, else fax to 0181 840 3463 if convenient, please.
Tony Sleep
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 18:11 GMT0
From: halftone@cix.compulink.co.uk (Tony Sleep)
Subject: Re: gleam, eh?
>GLEAM
Thanks for the explanation Tim.
I've had in mind for a while to do a series of interviews on "Great
Enemies of Motorcycling"...
Tony Sleep
------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 21:53:37 +0000
From: Peter Bradley <hm50@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: RT Roads and "non" UCR's
Hi all,
My name is Peter Bradley and I'm brand new to
this list. I've just been thrust into the job
of ROW "Officer" for the White Rose 4x4 Club, a
small but keen band based in the heart of rural
North Yorkshire. The reason for this is simple:
I know more than most other members. Unfortunately,
I do not know nearly enough, so you can expect many
cries of "help" from me.
Ours is a big county, and as we are a small club
we have decided to concentrate on The Yorkshire
Dales National Park area, where we do most of our
laning anyway.
1st question: Anybody else on this list involved
with YDNP or NYCC ? (So I can compare notes).
2nd question: Can someone remind me what the
full meaning of an RT road is ?
3rd question: My latest run-in with NYCC involves
their refusal to let us repair a seriously damaged UCR.
Highways Maintenance sent me a letter stating "....
initial findings have not confirmed any vehicular
status". And yet the last time I took a look at their
own maps the road was a UCR. Is this just the right
hand not talking to the left ?
Thanks
Peter Bradley
------------------------------
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 18:36:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: YDNP etc & questions
<<1st question: Anybody else on this list involved
with YDNP or NYCC ? (So I can compare notes).>>
Yes, I have been involved with NYCC & YDNP since about 1983. If you want to
make progress or sense of RoW work, I suggest you consider moving.
<<2nd question: Can someone remind me what the
full meaning of an RT road is ?>>
Ratione tenurae = a road repairable 'by reason of tenure'. A landowner who
was granted land in the Inclosure process could also have been lumbered with
maintaining one or more of the roads in the same area. This is only one
mechanism, but there are several lanes up and down the country which are not
repairable by the CC, eg the middle bit of Mastiles Lane. RT is used as a
shorthand for all such routes.
<<3rd question: My latest run-in with NYCC involves
their refusal to let us repair a seriously damaged UCR.
Highways Maintenance sent me a letter stating "....
initial findings have not confirmed any vehicular
status". And yet the last time I took a look at their
own maps the road was a UCR. Is this just the right
hand not talking to the left ?>>
No it is another trick answer to a straight question. If there is a dodge,
you find it in North Yorkshire. First it was taking the brad and butter from
the mouths of their brother road workers, then we couldn't possibly have
enough insurance to do the work. They won't have Voluntary Restraint because
the signs are not in the DoT manual...
If a road is out of repair it is surely out of repair for all traffic?
Ask them whether they want you to go through the 'section 56' processes. This
bit of the Highways Act 1980 can be used to force an authority to repair a
road.
I would be interested to know which UCR this was, and if possible a copy of
the 'interesting and helpful' response by a council falling over itself to
assert and protect our rights to use and enjoy the roads. Come back to me if
you need more details.
Cheers, tim stevens
------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 01:37:55 +0000
From: Peter Bradley <hm50@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: YDNP etc & questions
Tim
> <<1st question: Anybody else on this list involved
> with YDNP or NYCC ? (So I can compare notes).>>
> Yes, I have been involved with NYCC & YDNP since about 1983. If you want to
> make progress or sense of RoW work, I suggest you consider moving.
That's not an option, I'm afraid. I'm born and bred in Nidderdale,
as are my parents, and theirs. I would never consider living outside
the county (unless you give me a flight to the Maldives). I will fight to
the death for the lanes which I consider to be my heritage. As will others
around here.
> <<2nd question: Can someone remind me what the
> full meaning of an RT road is ?>>
> Ratione tenurae = a road repairable 'by reason of tenure'. A landowner who
> was granted land in the Inclosure process could also have been lumbered with
[ truncated by list-digester (was 6 lines)]
> repairable by the CC, eg the middle bit of Mastiles Lane. RT is used as a
> shorthand for all such routes.
Thanks. Pretty much as I remembered it. They pay less rates too, do
they not ? In return for repairing the road, which they do not.
> <<3rd question: My latest run-in with NYCC involves
> their refusal to let us repair a seriously damaged UCR.
[ truncated by list-digester (was 8 lines)]
> own maps the road was a UCR. Is this just the right
> hand not talking to the left ?>>
> No it is another trick answer to a straight question. If there is a dodge,
> you find it in North Yorkshire. First it was taking the brad and butter from
> the mouths of their brother road workers, then we couldn't possibly have
> enough insurance to do the work. They won't have Voluntary Restraint because
> the signs are not in the DoT manual...
They're not easy people to deal with, I'll grant you ......... :^(
> If a road is out of repair it is surely out of repair for all traffic?
> Ask them whether they want you to go through the 'section 56' processes. This
> bit of the Highways Act 1980 can be used to force an authority to repair a
> road.
Thanks, great. Now I know I'm talking to the right people.
> I would be interested to know which UCR this was, and if possible a copy of
> the 'interesting and helpful' response by a council falling over itself to
> assert and protect our rights to use and enjoy the roads. Come back to me if
> you need more details.
Here follows all the correspondence to date ................
---------------------------------------------------------------------
WHITE ROSE 4 X 4 CLUB
c/o Peter D Bradley
etc .......
Land Charges Dept
Director of Environmental Services
North Yorkshire County Council
County Hall
Northallerton
DL7 8AH
26/02/97
Dear Sirs
NATIONAL GREEN LANE DAY
As you may be aware, Sunday 23rd March is National Green Lane Day,
and on this day four wheel drive enthusiasts countrywide will be
actively engaged in voluntary repair and clearing work on byways
and unsurfaced roads. This work benefits all users including
walkers, horse riders, mountain bikers, trail riders, and four wheel
drive owners.
White Rose 4x4 Club seek your assistance by allowing us to make
voluntary repairs to the track leading from Arkleside in Coverdale
to Scar House reservoir in Upper Nidderdale, at a point just to the
south of the parish boundary, and close to map reference 045781. At
this point a short section of the track has sunk into what is now a
steep sided and waterlogged hole, and this has rendered the road
impassable, especially in view of the boggy nature of the surrounding
terrain. We propose to repair this hole with stone and rubble infill,
and to return the road surface to a useable condition.
An early reply to this letter would be appreciated as we need time
to organise the working party. Any assistance you can give us with
regard to materials would be especially welcome.
Yours faithfully
Peter D Bradley
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr Bradley
NATIONAL GREEN LANE DAY - 23 MARCH
Thank you for your letter dated 26 February offering to repair part
of green lane ref SN503G at map reference SE 045781. This section
of green lane is just outside the boundary of the Yorkshire Dales
National Park which researches and administers green lanes within
the Park on behalf of the Environment Services Committee.
The route leads from Arkleside in Coverdale to Ramsgill in Nidderdale.
The Yorkshire Dales National Park has not yet completed research on
the status of the way but initial findings have not confirmed any
vehicular status.
The County Council maintains the general stance that in the absence
of conclusive evidence to the contrary, unmade green lanes do not
have public vehicular rights over them. In the circumstances I
regret that your offer of assistance with repair cannot be accepted.
I have spoken to Mrs Parker of the Yorkshire Dales National Park
Authority at Grassington who may well be able to take up your offer
of assistance to maintain green lanes elsewhere in the Park where
vehicular rights have been established and the routes reclassified
as Byways open to all traffic.
Yours sincerely
A W Burns
Maintenance Manager
Copy to No.1 Div Engineer
No.6 Div Engineer
Yorks Dales Nat Park Officer, Grassington
------------------------------------------------------------------
WHITE ROSE 4 X 4 CLUB
c/o Peter D Bradley
etc...
Mr A W Burns - Maintenance Manager
Director of Environmental Services
North Yorkshire County Council
County Hall
Northallerton
DL7 8AH
07/03/97
Dear Mr Burns
NATIONAL GREEN LANE DAY
Thank you for your letter dated 6th March. It is disappointing to
learn that you are unable to accept our offer of voluntary repair.
Only last weekend I was talking to some walkers on green lane SN503G,
whilst surveying the damaged section in question. They were amazed
and delighted to find that individuals were prepared to put their own
time and effort into maintaining old roads.
National Green Lane Day is co-ordinated nationwide by the All Wheel
Drive Club, with whom I am in close contact. It is my intention to
report back to the A.W.D.C. with your reply to our request, and you
should be aware that this may attract adverse publicity to N.Y.C.C.,
as it has done in the past, in both the national press and four wheel
drive specific magazines.
Your second and third paragraphs are of particular concern to me.
I read with horror and disbelief your comment "initial findings have
not confirmed any vehicular status." On my last visit to County Hall,
admittedly a couple of years ago, this lane was clearly marked on the
definitive map as a UCR. The old road is visible disappearing into
Scar House reservoir at Lodge, and reappearing at the other side.
There is a right of access over the dam dated 1933. The road is known
to have been used by packhorse trains, indeed Lodge was an inn at one
time, and it is only reasonable to assume that it would have supported
wheeled vehicles.
I have driven this lane personally for many years, the full length and
in both directions, as has Mr. P. Smart of Rainton and Mr. N. Heward
of Harrogate. At no time have I been challenged with regard to my
vehicular right of way, either on the track or crossing Scar House
dam.
Yours faithfully
Peter D Bradley
-------------------------------------------------------------------
CLUB USE:-
-----------------------------------
Green Lanes in the Yorkshire Dales National Park
I have spoken today at some length with a Mrs. Parker of the
Yorkshire Dales National Park Authority at Grassington. Basically,
all reclassification of lanes within the N.P. is being handled by
Mrs. Parker, therefore she is a fairly key figure. Correspondence
should be addressed to :-
Mrs. Parker
Yorkshire Dales National Park Authority
Colvend
Hebden Road
Grassington
Skipton
BD23 5LB
Her telephone number is:- 01756 752748
I am informed that although "the file is open" on many green lanes,
only three have so far been reclassified, all three as byways.
These three lanes are:-
Gilbert Lane / High Lane from Causeway Moss to Stalling Busk
(commonly known as "Stake Pass").
Cam High Road from Howgate Head to the junction of the
Bainbridge-Countersett road.
Busk Lane from Carperley Green to the junction with the Stake Pass.
I am told that they are to be "repaired", especially Cam High Road,
possibly in June or July, and that assistance with repairs will be
accepted. The chap responsible for repairs is called Ray Lonsdale
and he operates from the Grassington office.
Reclassification is going to be painfully slow, but one thing that
Mrs Parker said which is in our favour is that ALL EVIDENCE would
be considered, without bias, including evidence of use. My suggestion
that users should write to her directly, as evidence, was well received.
Until a lane is reclassified the current status remains, so the message
to users of green lanes in the Dales N.P. is clear:
Drive the lanes which you know currently have vehicular right of way,
take some pictures, then write to Mrs.P at the above address telling
her that you have been doing this for years. Be nice to her, we
need her as an ally. White Rose 4x4 Club will write offering our
services, on any weekend to help with repairs, with assistance in
seeking historical and user evidence, and with a firm promise of
voluntary restraint where necessary.
If Mrs.P is to be believed, and with luck, we'll keep most of the
lanes as byways.
The situation outside of the N.P. is less clear.
Peter Bradley
------------------------------------------------------------------
White Rose 4x4 Club
c/o Peter D Bradley
....etc...
Mrs. Parker
Yorkshire Dales National Park Authority
Colvend
Hebden Road
Grassington
Skipton
BD23 5LB
10/03/97
Dear Mrs Parker
GREEN LANES IN THE YORKSHIRE DALES NATIONAL PARK
It was both pleasant and informative speaking to you last
Friday, with regard to the modification of status of green
lanes within the Park.
I would like to confirm that the club which I represent is
more than happy to assist and co-operate with the National
Park Authority wherever possible, especially with help in
repairing damaged lanes. We have some highly capable vehicles
in our stable and if necessary these can be fitted with our own
low ground pressure "Treadlite" tyres which leave almost no
impression even on the softest land. I am sure that we could
have volunteers and suitable vehicles available on any weekend,
with a little advance notice.
We also offer our services with regard to gathering historical
data and user evidence. White Rose 4x4 Club members frequently
use the Dales lanes, both inside and outside the Park, and many
have a good knowledge of the history of these lanes.
I must stress that we are all responsible off-road drivers, keen
to preserve the lanes as they are, along with the surrounding
countryside. We use green lanes as a leisurely way for the whole
family to enjoy the Dales scenery, not as some mud-plugging
challenge for which we would happily pay to hire private land.
We will willingly adhere to any reasonable request for voluntary
restraint.
You may also recall my mentioning one particular route which has
been driven and enjoyed for many years by myself, Mr. P. Smart
of Rainton, and many other folk of our acquaintance. This route,
part of which is inside the Park and part outside, runs from
Middlesmoor as In Moor Lane, across Scar House Dam as a right of
access, and over to Arkleside in Coverdale as part of Carle Fell
Road. Last week I informed N.Y.C.C. Highways Maintenance Dept
that a short section of this lane, at approximately SE 045781,
had become so badly damaged as to render the route impassable.
I offered the services of White Rose 4x4 Club in order to effect
a repair but was refused on the grounds that "initial findings
have not confirmed any vehicular status". This concerns me
greatly, and is in direct conflict with my own research regarding
this lane and others in the area. Indeed, on my last visit to
County Hall, the section from Scar House to Arkleside was clearly
marked on the map as a UCR.
I would be extremely grateful if you would keep me informed as to
any developments regarding the reclassification of this route.
Yours sincerely
Peter D Bradley
-------------------------------------------------------------
White Rose 4x4 Club
c/o Peter D Bradley
...etc ........
Mr K. Wadkins
Rights of Way Department
North Yorkshire County Council
County Hall
Northallerton
DL7 8AH
11/03/97
Dear Mr Wadkins
MIDDLESMOOR, NIDDERDALE - ARKLESIDE, COVERDALE
VIA SCAR HOUSE RESERVOIR
About four years ago I visited your office to check the
legality of driving the above route by Land Rover.
I remember spending an interesting half hour looking at
the relevant Definitive Map, and digesting the helpful and
informative comments you made with regard to access across
the dam, and the track known as "Dale Edge". Based on the
information gathered I marked up my 1:25000 scale maps as follows:
In Moor Lane - Middlesmoor to Scar House - R.T. status road.
Scar House Dam - Right of Access from green lane only - circa 1933.
Carle Fell Road - Scar House to Arkleside - U.C.R.
Since then I have driven this route many times indeed, and at no
time have I been challenged with regard to my vehicular right of way.
I recently sent a letter to Highways Maintenance, Environmental
Services, bringing to their attention a damaged section of this
route at SE 045781. I was rather surprised, to say the least, when
I read their reply which included the comment "The Yorkshire Dales
National Park has not yet completed research on the status of the
way but initial findings have not confirmed any vehicular status".
I wonder if you would be kind enough to advise me as to whether the
information I have listed above is still accurate ? If not, I would
very much appreciate your correcting it.
Many thanks.
Yours sincerely
Peter D Bradley
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks Tim, any assistance gratefully received.
Peter Bradley
------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 08:03 GMT0
From: doghouse@cix.compulink.co.uk (Michael Dyer)
Subject: List and members...
<<<BHS as they have so much to gain.>>>
BHS were IME fairly neutral on the subject of vehicles on
byways....until the luna..er, person in charge of LRO saw fit to print a
letter from some rock-ape which, albeit written with tongue firmly in
cheek, suggested banning horses from Byways....this did more to damage
BHS-4x4 relations than anything GLEAM could have done....
Theres everything to be gained from pointing out to the BHS that a party
of 4x4s clearing a lane make it more accessible for horses...its worked a
traet for me in the past...
:-) Mick Dyer
------------------------------
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