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Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 22:37 GMT0
From: srawlings@cix.compulink.co.uk (Stephen Rawlings)
Subject: Shrops Lanes Info.
You seem not to be aware of the efforts made in this regard by the TRF,
who
have a similar code for lanes, but not the same. They use a number such as
118/93 where 118 is the OS Landranger map and 93 a unique number
generated by
the keeper of that map. Many grid refs include the ends of more than one
lane, so your system would not prevent anomalies. Also, by your system,
the
same lane could have two numbers, one for each end. In the TRF system,
wherever there are choices, eg a route on two maps, with two ends, the
lower
number is always used.<<
Shropshire TRF has had a database since about 1978-80 based on 25000 maps
of the county. Each lane has a number based on something as detailed bt
Tim.
However, I wanted to move to using the CC's numbering system which is
based on Parishes and include it in the "bible" somehow. This would be
easy with these here PC things.
Steve Rawlings
Non riding TRF member! (Got the bike, 4WD's also loads of sprogs!!!)
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Date: 13 Mar 97 05:37:29 EST
From: Chris Marsden <100620.2156@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: correspondence H&W
This is long, please delete it now if of no interest.
An ongoing letter to(<), and reply from (>>>>)Asstnt Director Hereford &
Worcester, for info only.
<Dear Jeff,
I was wondering if the information supplied to the OS was by statute, and so had
to be complete, or if there should or would be some degree of latitude (for
example No Through Roads that may have been caused by other road building) of
not being entered on the OS map?
Leading on from this, I understand, please correct me if I am wrong, where an
all-purpose highway on the LoS is already shown by the O.S. as say a footpath,
there will be no change to the O.S. L/R or P/F map. This will lead to walkers
meeting horses, bikes or even cars on what is shown on their map as a footpath.
This naturally leads to unnecessary resentment. We would all feel the same I
am sure. Perhaps it is a point that could be highlighted in Way Out!
NOTE Way Out is the CC's free RoW magazine.
>>>>Dear Chris,
The information we supplied to OS was not by statute but they did spend some
time at County Hall and not just rely on a list and hence I imagine that they
will resolve the duplication worry that you have. Their normal diligence would
suggest to me that they would ask us to resolve a status conflict.
<If this is the case, it surely follows that better and more accurate signing
could benefit all users. I see that the red on white circular plastic signs for
byways are used extensively on minor unclassifieds in the north-west of the
county to good effect, could this be extended generally?
<Members of this group would be willing to assist in this work in North
Herefordshire. Although black is used for county roads; red, more commonly used
on byways, would seem appropriate for unsurfaced roads that might need more
caution from a potential user as regards the suitability or not of the route for
the intended vehicle.
<Members of this group would be willing to assist in this work in North
Unfortunately the byway disks that you applaud are not strictly legal and other
people have taken the view that we have already made our minds up on the review.
I think Zog put them up to be helpful, but I fear they will have to come down.
NOTE - So why can the CC be made to remove Red Byway signs from Greenlane UCR^Rs?
(Zog is CC f/p warden)
____________________________________________
<On a different subject I am still at a loss to understand why all the effort is
being put into rationalising^R the network, sometimes still referred to as
downgrading^R. This group and myself, like many other groups I am sure, will
oppose any general downgrading of course, and would wish to see at least as
many routes upgraded, and restored, as downgraded. More of this I expect,
later. Is it possibly due to councillor pressure - several other counties have
RoW depts. and Highways depts., doing things they would prefer not to, and
alienating users, unjustly taking the flack themselves?
<I read with interest (Hereford Times, 13/2/97 north, P9) that Ian Brown has
wound up, or as he puts it, "has been quick to enlist the support of his county
councillor, Olwyn Barnett, who predicted that 'war is about to start across the
county over the subject of rights of way." Have you or Andy had an ear-bending
from Olwyn and friends yet? If so, what is the desired out come "across the
county" of those throwing down the gauntlet? It would be such a pity if their
aim is to throw away all the good work your department has done on the
definitive map over the years, just for their selfish privacy. Were these
people the inspirational force for the review?
<As the Gates at Upper Lye have been closed and padlocked for years, even to
walkers, it is small wonder vehicles have not used it for years. If he accepts
walkers why has he illegally barred them? Why has he stolen this public road
for so many years? But 30 feet by about 750 metres of land must have quite a
value! He might stir the villages up against "all these four wheel drives
destroying their peace", but there was quite an outcry in the village I believe,
when first he obstructed it. (Where does he find all these 4wd^Rs? - we can^Rt
find enough to keep the vegetation back!)
<As the Gates at Upper Lye have been closed and padlocked for years, even to
Can I say firmly that I have come under no pressure from our members. I started
it myself on a tidy up basis, but when I realised the Pandora box aspects, I
felt a pilot was the way forward so that I could approach members with more
objectivity.
Equally I have had no pressure from landowners. At Aymestry we have the
unfortunate coming together of -
(a) a genuine modification dating from 1990.
(b) Mortimer Trail by negotiation.
(c) my review
and if I dare say it
(d) your local activities.
These, whilst having common threads, are all separate, but it does lead to lots
of confusion and uncertainty.
I really do not think Mr Brown has stolen anything. My guess is that either
someone else stole it further back and that the relevant authority at whatever
the time was let it happen, but I do not know for sure.
NOTE Pandora^Rs Box = euphemism for can of worms! He has already told me at least
one landowner was expecting, and he said he did nothing to enlighten him, that
"his" lane was not going down to bridleway in the review. He certainly has had
landowner pressure.
<There are other Public Carriage roads, for example: that which Leysfield Road
branches out of, Lower Ley Road, (The Camp to Old Shop) which is in occasional
public use, and has substantial agricultural use at both ends. Unless they have
been stopped up, is there any reason to refrain from use of these roads at
suitable times, and with suitable modes of transport?
<Assuring you of our very best intentions for the historic lanes of
Herefordshire at all times.
Yours sincerely,
Chris Marsden
Marches Historic Lane Preservation Group
<Assuring you of our very best intentions for the historic lanes of
On public carriage roads I do not want to be specific as I am not sure what
advice to give you. You must be absolutely sure of your ground i.e. the
interpretation is unequivocal and that there has been no stopping up. You can,
of course, apply for a modification order but it would be at the bottom of our
list and probably take some years. I think I would try to proceed by
negotiation with owners and frontagers particularly if you can put something
back. Frankly I would keep away from sensitive areas and look for possibilities
that do not affect livelihoods or lead to damage or danger; real or perceived if
that is not asking too much.
NOTE It seems he is hinting there may be some damage? The *only* damage is by
the people that have obstructed a number of roads. This is can be proved.
Chris.
------------------------------
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Date: 13 Mar 97 07:01:29 EST
From: Chris Marsden <100620.2156@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Database - Why?
Hi,
The first question must be why do we want a database, and who is it for?
and only then can we decide what needs to be on it.
I can only speak for myself, but welcome comments.
It seems we do duplicate a lot of work, which if pooled could be taken much
further.
But clearly those who have taken much time to research are reluctant to
publicise info to those too lazy to do any work, or may not treat the routes
with the respect that the DB's author might. That is the first problem. However
I am amazed by the effort put in by so many people in their own areas often
duplicating effort. This is where we should be able to compare and spread
knowledge.
My reasons to compile a database were:-
To be able to back-up the data on the map.
To record notes on a lane.
To be able to keep user evidence by lane.
To be able to pass on the data easily
To record and sort by (if reqd) County road name/ number, or Byway No. or length
or distance from home or ease or otherwise of driving etc. etc.
The next problem was how to identify each lane.
When I started there were so few Byways on my local map 148 (Prestigne) that I
started at 1, and went round clockwise.
That was a big mistake. It allowed cataloguing further info. but I could not
ring someone up and say "meet you on lane 12" unless they had the same list.
Another major problem became evident when the number of lanes got to be over a
hundred, finding the damn things. New discoveries were not then in order.
After much thought, I have standardised on a convention which is perfect for me.
It is meaningful to everyone, and provides a flexible method to file all
correspondence, map extracts, Inclosure award copies etc. All my letters to CC
re a specific lane have my reference no. I then know where to file the reply
immediately (or bin it)
This is simply the KM sq at the West end of the lane.
This gives a 4 digit map reference of the start. It is rare to get two lanes
starting at the same point, or in the same sq, but where this does happen, they
simple have a suffix of .1 or .2 etc added.
It is very much quicker and easier to look up a 4 digit ref when out than a 6
digit.
The data base also contains the 6 digit ref of start and finish. (I have found
it easier more accurate - and more flexible when calculating distances - to
treat 6 digit refs as 2 fields of 3)
It is easy to remember a 4 digit no. (perhaps given on the move over CB), rather
than trying to remember a 6 digit No. (or 2 X 6digits)
If it is a true N-S route (to within 100m) ie same last three of a 6 digit grid
ref. it is the lower one that is recorded as the start.
These are then sorted in order of 4 digit reference no. or as required on the
Excel database.
It is not a code, I see no point in uneccesarily using a code that needs a key.
If secrecy is important, I dont give the reference.
The 4 digit reference can automatically be extracted easily from the full 6
digit ref. To ensure I always have the Westernmost end used to provide the
reference I subtract one from the other, if a minus value, it is displayed in
red. Rather than simple subtraction I used pythagoras (I am sure there is a
better way) to calculate the "straight line distance" start to finish. This
saves entering the length each time.
It does mean separate database for each 100km sq, but that gives 10,000 1 km
squares as potential reference numbers. It is also as big as I would want one db
to be.
It is also just one more step to be able to identify the pathfinder map from the
4 dig ref. This is a most useful feature. They do not overlap like the L/Rs
do. They are logical. i.e. ngr 234 567 is on P/F 25 , 765 432 is on P/F 64.
(I know they are bringing out these new illogical super P/Fs - I'll stick with
the current ones - I am interested in lanes as they were in the past, the older
the map the better :-)
Chris
------------------------------
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:48:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Shrops Lanes Info.
The problem with having a system that relies on authority numbers is that
they are liable to change due to:
i. changes in status, RUPP > BOAT, Bridleway > BOAT, etc.
ii. changes in authority - reorganisation, Unitary, boundary shifts, etc.
And there is no need to tell anyone what the new numbers are or what they
relate to.
Also, SCC might label routes by parish, but others don't, and it is best to
have a system which is as nationally uniform as possible.
Of course, the record ought to note what the authority number is, but we
should not rely on it.
Cheers, tim
------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 12:04:56 -0500
From: Don Scott <Donald_Scott@compuserve.com>
Subject: Current Membership Info
The current membership of the Row List is as follows
Please if you have Gaps on your entry let me have the details
Don Scott
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
ID Service Provider Real Name Location
Other Info
100620.2156@ compuserve.com Chris Marsden Shropshire List Owner
101360.3273@ compuserve.com Richard Brownlee Surrey
AWDC Row Rep Surrey
ukpad @ software-ag.de Peter Dowson Staffordshire / Derbyshire
TimLARA @ aol.com Tim Stevens Market Drayton LARA
srawlings @ cix.compulink.co.uk Steve Rawlings Nr Telford
TRF
Donald_Scott@ compuserve.com Don Scott Hertfordshire
AWDC RoW Database
central4x4 @ zetnet.co.uk Owen Sayers West Lothian
Central 4x4, Scotland
gl @ mikecat.demon.co.uk Mike Cattell Cheshire, U.K.
http://www.mikecat.demon.co.uk/
Tilbo @ aol.com Dave Tilbury Hampshire
user @ rsltd.softnet.co.uk Adrian Pickersgill Worcester
doghouse @ cix.compulink.co.uk Michael Dyer
halftone @ cix.compulink.co.uk Tony Sleep
crt @ crt.compulink.co.uk
dstaniforth @ cix.compulink.co.uk
GSeymour@ mp.sihe.ac.uk Seymour, Gareth Swansea
ddavie @ tridex.co.uk Donald Davie
philt @ innotts.co.uk Phil Taylor Nottingham
alan @ highwayman.demon.co.uk Alan Kind BBT NuT
hm50 @ dial.pipex.com Peter Bradley North Yorkshire.
WHITE ROSE 4 X 4 CLUB
envproject @ wcceh.ftech.co.uk
Richard.Spencer@ easysoft.com Richard Spencer
gerald.tan @ bbc.co.uk Gerald Tan
Glenn.Jones@ barclays.co.uk Glenn Jones
Charlietrf @ aol.com TRF
apearce @ cix.compulink.co.uk
john.o'reilly@ virgin.net John O'Reilly Hertfordshire
Herts Land Rover Fanatics
brian @ heslop.demon.co.uk Brian Heslop
glenn.rees @ PAREURO.COM Glenn Rees
------------------------------
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Date: 13 Mar 97 20:07:12 EST
From: Chris Marsden <100620.2156@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: List Members
Don Scot has kindly searched his database for some of this info, perhaps you
could let me know details incorrect/incomplete.
Thanks
For those that have joined recently, the list is now two weeks old as of Friday
00.00hrs
ID Service Provider Real Name
Location Other Info
100620.2156@ compuserve.com Chris Marsden N
Herefordshire List Owner
101360.3273@ compuserve.com Richard Brownlee Surrey
AWDC Row Rep Surrey
ukpad @ software-ag.de Peter Dowson
Staffordshire / Derbyshire
TimLARA @ aol.com Tim Stevens
Market Drayton LARA
srawlings @ cix.compulink.co.uk Steve Rawlings
Nr Telford TRF
Donald_Scott@ compuserve.com Don Scott
Hertfordshire AWDC RoW Database
central4x4 @ zetnet.co.uk Owen Sayers West
Lothian Central 4x4, Scotland
gl @ mikecat.demon.co.uk Mike Cattell
Cheshire, U.K. http://www.mikecat.demon.co.uk/
Tilbo @ aol.com Dave Tilbury
Hampshire
user @ rsltd.softnet.co.uk Adrian Pickersgill Worcester
doghouse @ cix.compulink.co.uk Michael Dyer
halftone @ cix.compulink.co.uk Tony Sleep
crt @ crt.compulink.co.uk
dstaniforth @ cix.compulink.co.uk
GSeymour@ mp.sihe.ac.uk Gareth Seymour, Swansea
ddavie @ tridex.co.uk Donald Davie
philt @ innotts.co.uk Phil Taylor
Nottingham
alan @ highwayman.demon.co.uk Alan Kind NuT
BBT
hm50 @ dial.pipex.com Peter Bradley North
Yorkshire.
WHITE ROSE 4 X 4 CLUB
envproject @ wcceh.ftech.co.uk Steve Neville
TRF
Richard.Spencer@ easysoft.com Richard Spencer
gerald.tan @ bbc.co.uk Gerald Tan
Glenn.Jones@ barclays.co.uk Glenn Jones
Charlietrf @ aol.com Charlie Morriss
Stroud TRF
apearce @ cix.compulink.co.uk
john.o'reilly@ virgin.net John O'Reilly
Hertfordshire DORA
Herts Land Rover Fanatics
brian @ heslop.demon.co.uk Brian Heslop
glenn.rees @ PAREURO.COM Glenn Rees
------------------------------
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