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Date: Thu, 24 Apr 97 09:02:13 UT
From: "JULIAN WATT" <JULIAN_WATT@msn.com>
Subject: Popular Demand
Due to populqar demand I will give you all the details of the group that was
given the £170,000:00 as part of a £3.5M spend on various sports, leisure and
recreational schemes! BUT YOU WILL HAVE TO WAIT A FEW DAYS! ALL MY WORLDLY
POSSESSIONS APPART FROM THE LANDROVER ARE BOXED READY FOR MOVING HOUSE TOMORRO
W!
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 05:35:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: What might be illegal
Here is one for the legal eagles, beagles, and weazels
Andy has reminded me about a point which might be significant:
In law there is a concept known as Mens Rea, in which it is considered
whether a culprit knew or did not know they were breaking the law. Sometimes
this is a useful way of deciding cases.
How does the use of routes by motorists fit in with the Mens Rea concept?
Cheers, tim
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 05:35:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: National Lottery
The group you have discovered is the South Pennines Packhorse Trails Trust,
run by two ladies with balls - Sue Hogg and Sue Taylor. I would not like to
fall out with either of them, but Calderdale Council has ... They are mainly
a horse, and carriage, group, but support BOAT where the evidence exists, and
welcome sensible use by all who are entitled. Sue Taylor is becoming active
in the BDS, and this might bring them round to realise where their true
interests lie (and not with saying carts on bridleways and no motors on green
lanes, as at present).
There is currrently no-one, to my knowledge, doing anything about trying to
get lottery funding for GLD or any other initiatives. In the past the problem
was that funding should not be used to pay for something which should be done
anyway, and this includes research, clearance, asserting & protecting (no,
don't laugh) and removing overgrowth & obstructions. But the rules are now
more flexible. Funding is now available for training for competition,
especially if the sport brings in medals, but I am sure if someone were
really to set their minds to it, a way could be found. How about it, Julian?
Anyone else out there with the necessary persistence, determination,
pig-headedness, etc?
Cheers, tim
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 05:35:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: A few thoughts on Education - alternative party
It is suggested that a RoW get-together aimed at beginners might be useful.
I can offer a big room and an endless supply of coffee and gingerbread, here
at Market Drayton.
Weekends are probably best for volunteers, but a mid-week day might also
attract support. No problem from our point of view up to a dozen.
Those who came from far far away can stay the night, (not quite so many).
No good at geography? MD is half way between Shrewsbury and Stoke on Trent,
about 15 miles wsw of junction 15, 18 wnw of j 14, M6.
If anyone interested could post a list of dates suitable for them, I will
chose a least-unsuitable day, and off we go.
LARA Forward Plan says we will do such training, so get your applications in
now.
Looking forward to it already
cheers, tim
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 05:35:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: National Lottery - how to find out more
Contact your local Sports Council for the address for your area. Your local
library will give you the address & phone number.
Cheers, tim
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Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:02:20 +0100
From: alan kind <alan@highwayman.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: What might be illegal
In message <970424053508_-1032199470@emout11.mail.aol.com>,
TimLARA@aol.com writes
>Here is one for the legal eagles, beagles, and weazels
>Andy has reminded me about a point which might be significant:
[ truncated by list-digester (was 9 lines)]
>How does the use of routes by motorists fit in with the Mens Rea concept?
>Cheers, tim
>From Alan Kind
One authoritative view on this already reposes within the pages of RWLR
- but I'm not wholly convinced. Most motoring offences are absolute, or
thereabouts - typically the test for dangerous driving being made
objective rather than subjective in the last major RTA amendment. In
general a criminal offence has two components: mens rea is a criminal
state of mind (i.e. intention or serious recklessness as to consequence)
and actus reus, which is everything else (typically the act of putting
the brick through the window). Regulatory offences (i.e. mostly minor
things which are codified politeness) tend to remove the requirement to
prove mens rea, e.g. speeding.
I now intend to press the "post" button, which will commit the act of
sending this e-mail. Does that make me a criminal?
Regards
--
Alan kind
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From: Adrian Pickersgill <user@rsltd.softnet.co.uk>
Subject: RE: A few thoughts on Education - alternative party
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 12:45:45 +0100
Hi Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: TimLARA@aol.com [SMTP:TimLARA@aol.com]
Sent: 24 April 1997 10:35
To: john.o'reilly@virgin.net; RoW@playground.sun.com
Subject: Re: A few thoughts on Education - alternative party
Weekends are probably best for volunteers, but a mid-week day might also
attract support.
LARA Forward Plan says we will do such training, so get your applications in
now.
[Adrian Pickersgill] As a newby to RoW I am definitely interested in any
assistance / training, especially if it includes a section on 'how to destroy
the antis arguments' by a ex-SAS officer :-) Perhaps not.
The weekends are most suitable for me, although so long as I have long
enough warning I could arrange a week day.
So pick you date
Adrian Pickersgill
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Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:41:21 +0100
From: Mike Cattell <Mike@mikecat.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: A few thoughts on Education - alternative party
In message <970424053507_-1099625902@emout10.mail.aol.com>,
TimLARA@aol.com writes
>It is suggested that a RoW get-together aimed at beginners might be useful.
>I can offer a big room and an endless supply of coffee and gingerbread, here
[ truncated by list-digester (was 16 lines)]
>Looking forward to it already
>cheers, tim
Count me in, weekends are best but weekday is not an impossibility with a
little bit of notice.
I'm sure this is the way forward
Cheers
Mike Cattell, West Cheshire.
http://www.mikecat.demon.co.uk
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Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:45:14 -0400
From: Chris Marsden <Byway@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: What might be illegal
> How does the use of routes by motorists fit in with the Mens Rea concept?
Dunnow abowt zat.
But it amazed me that there was an apparent big hole in the Criminal Damage
Act about beliefs being honestly held regardless of being right or not.. I
thought like ignorance of the law is no defence, nor would beliefs that the
gate (or masters) youve just cut down shouldnt have been there..
C
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Date: 24 Apr 97 17:22:36 EDT
From: Richard Brownlee <101360.3273@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Re: A few thoughts on Education - alternative party
Hi Tim and all
>If anyone interested could post a list of dates suitable for them, I will
>chose a least-unsuitable day, and off we go.
>LARA Forward Plan says we will do such training, so get your applications in
>now.
Count me in. Weekends are far far easier for me.
Regards
Richard
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Date: Thu, 24 Apr 97 22:37 BST-1
From: srawlings@cix.compulink.co.uk (Stephen Rawlings)
Subject: == No Subject ==
Perhaps, and I for one would certainly benifit from this, we could arrange
a list study day (for want of a better word) during the summer. When
people could get together and learn from each other, not just 4x4 but trf,
cla etc.
Well as Tim will no doubt mention, the TRf has run training workshops on
and off for a number of years. He will be the best person to organise
something like this I would imagine?
Steve Rawlings
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From: Tilbo@aol.com
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 17:55:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Site & Candovers
In a message dated 23/04/97 23:09:49, you write:
<< With a RUPP the only need for user evidence is to show that it should not
be extinguished because it is unnecessary. You do not need 20 years use
unless you are trying to show presumption to dedicate. >>
There is a pressing need for user evidence at PI. Read some of the
Inspectors reports.
Then we have Inspectors who claim it cannot be a byway because it has not
been used by vehicles.
Ignore the assertions of GRIM - sorry GLEAM.
DT
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From: Tilbo@aol.com
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 17:57:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: What might be illegal
In a message dated 24/04/97 09:35:43, you write:
<< Andy has reminded me about a point which might be significant:
In law there is a concept known as Mens Rea, in which it is considered
whether a culprit knew or did not know they were breaking the law. Sometimes
this is a useful way of deciding cases. >>
RTA88 s34 is strict liability and requires no MR for conviction.
DT
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From: Tilbo@aol.com
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 17:57:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: What might be illegal
Hi
I think it best you all drop the subject before any one ends up being nicked
for incitement.
You are looking at different areas of law that have been (obviously)
interpreted by the different precidents set by past cases. A counter to
criminal damage (which can be unintentional) is that you were abating a
public nuisance it is that that must be genuinly believed. CD is not astrict
liability offence and therefor there has to be MR & AR. Offences under RTA88
of the type in question are. You didn't intend to be doing 40 on a 30 limit
- no MR but the AR was suffucient.
To over come the SL in the TRA s34 you rely on the lawful authority to use.
ie the way is a road - not a footpath as shown of Dif Map. The Dif Map
allows this because it is not prejudicing higher rights.
eg. Application to HCC to have a way added to Dif Map as footpath. Evidence
showed the BOAT was correct but the way was out of repair to the extent that
no one had used in living memory. Couldn't be BOAT as not used as footpath
or bridleway. User is essential and where genuin not illegal.
As far as I'm aware.
DT
We know that case law allows us to bypass or remove obstruction sufficient
for passage.
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Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 19:24:04 -0400
From: Chris Marsden <Byway@compuserve.com>
Subject: A few thoughts
> ---------- Forwarded Message ----------
> From: Mike Cattell, INTERNET:Mike@mikecat.demon.co.uk
[ truncated by list-digester (was 11 lines)]
> Sender: Mike@mikecat.demon.co.uk
> Received: from playground.sun.com (playground.Sun.COM [192.9.5.5]) by
arl-img-10.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515)
> id PAA08365; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:30:09 -0400
> Received: from relay-11.mail.demon.net (relay-11.mail.demon.net
[194.217.242.137])
> by playground.sun.com (8.8.6.Beta0/8.8.6.Beta0) with SMTP id
MAA08026
> for <ROW@playground.sun.com>; Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:30:02 -0700 (PDT)
> Received: from mikecat.demon.co.uk ([158.152.72.97]) by
relay-10.mail.demon.net
> id aa1015540; 23 Apr 97 18:09 BST
> Message-ID: <GXL02CAFIkXzEwNR@mikecat.demon.co.uk>
[ truncated by list-digester (was 14 lines)]
> As a newcomer among a group of experts will you let me make a few
> observations.
> I , like a good few others I suspect, am floundering a bit trying to
discover
> the correct and best way to help preserve and discover RoWs. I am very
> keen and read all posts avidly. I pick up hints on lines of investigation
and
> methods this way but feel as if Im not sure what Im doing.
Don't think every one on the list is an expert, we are all learning all the
time. A few are are much experienced but many like me are learning as we
go along, it sure helps to talk. If Tim sends others the detailed replies
he has sent to me, I would like to eavesdrop on those replies!
> My initial feelings are that you are all doing a lot to be reactive to
> keen and read all posts avidly. I pick up hints on lines of investigation
crisis
> that occur. A good few are being proactive in repairing and surveying
> new routes as well.
The HAs have had it too easy for too long. They need their butts kicked
but I am wondering if that is stirring up a hornets nest? I have drivven
one or two lanes here and they suggest closing all UCRs down. I write a
couple of letters to Powys, and he runs off to talk to his opposite number
in Hereford & Worcester and suggests many of the unsurfaced roads ought to
be downgraded.
Use them and lose em, or dont use em and lose em.
Chris
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Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 19:24:06 -0400
From: Chris Marsden <Byway@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: A few thoughts
John,
> But a full day training section complete with face to face
> meetings with other user groups sounds very good to me.
This is certainly worth doing, but I would suggest an initial meeting of
Users BDS TRF CTC BHS 4WD and similar first, try to get a united front,
more ways opened and show most people don't want damaged ways and that
vehicles users care about and clear routes for others, then meetings with
CLA and NFU, even HA or RoW depts later.
Turkeys dont vote for Christmas, CLA & NFU reps cant be seen going to a Pro
Byway conference and fighting against members interests in opening up
Finance Act or Public Carriage roads for all users. Those meetings should
follow on, after we have agreement between users. We cant risk any
bickering from blinkered horsey types that will not look at the adavantages
that co-operation can bring. There are many equestrians that accept that
reasonable vehicular use is a net benefit.
I am very happy to host a meeting here, for upto about 12 people or to
attend at Tim's.
I feel such meetings should be on an educational "costs only" basis, and
encourage RoW workers to attend.
I am easy about weekday or weekend.
Chris.
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