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From: "Julian Watt" <julian@mindnet.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:37:12 -0000
Subject: Re: GLASS: dunlop's fiction - lets get the facts.
Yes but like reading an enclosure award, all statements are open to
interpretation.
contact with in regard to green lanes complains of 'off- road'
> motoring abuse and state that they have had to take action to prevent
further damage.
This could be the council commenting on forestry and agriculture, not
recreational motoring. On the other hand most people would admit there is a
minority of people who go in for the Camel Trophy Green Lane Experience.
If we ask any authority 'do you have any problems with recreational use',
they'll probably say 'not on the whole but there have been isolated
instances'. you could interpret this into Mr. Dunlop's comments.
So what we have is someone who is in my opinion twisting the truth, not
necessarily lying, but pretty close!
Julian Watt
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 06:49:17 EST
Subject: Re: Warks 116
In a message dated 07 : 01 : 99 06:48 GMT, you write:
<< The Wooton Wawen to Aston Cantlow UCR has probably been
used fairly regularly by MROC (Midland Rover Owners Club) >>
The Divisional Surveyor tells me that the route is obstructed by a fence south
of the river, a step in the ford itself on the north exit, and garden fences
near Grey Mill Cottage. He also advises that there are trees growing across
the route.
The only thing holding up a Byway application, I think, is not knowing the
names and addresses of the landowners. But he does not know who owns the
route, (and might not say if he knew).
An alternative approach is via HA 80 s 56, as he admitted that the route was
repairable and out of repair.
Please can someone help with more info? I hope to visit the site myself but
next week is busy with meetings already.
Cheers, tim
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From: "Julian Watt" <julian@mindnet.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:06:23 -0000
Subject: Re: dunlop's fiction - lets get the facts.
Yes but like reading an enclosure award, all statements are open to
interpretation.
> I can confirm that every national park and county council that I have had
contact with in regard to green lanes complains of 'off- road'
> motoring abuse and state that they have had to take action to prevent
further damage.
This could be the council commenting on forestry and agriculture, not
recreational motoring. On the other hand most people would admit there is a
minority of people who go in for the Camel Trophy Green Lane Experience.
If we ask any authority 'do you have any problems with recreational use',
they'll probably say 'not on the whole but there have been isolated
instances'. you could interpret this into Mr. Dunlop's comments.
So what we have is someone who is in my opinion twisting the truth, not
necessarily lying, but pretty close!
Julian Watt
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From: Chris Marsden <Byway@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:19:26 -0500
Subject: Cambs byways&bridleways
> Has anyone found a proven way of dealing with gypsies? For the last 3 or
> 4 years I've been trying to persuade the Council to act on removing
> horses tethered by gypsies. But they won't. County say its a District
I'm beginning to despair of there being a proven way of CCs doing anything
- other than writing letters saying why they can't do anything.
If a CC won't take on Hoognasty with RA breathing down their neck, what
chance us polite individuals of getting CC to act?
If I lived there I think I would withold a small bit of council tax in
protest. Come to think of it, thats perhaps not such a bad idea until they
enforce at Upper Lye;-) Anyone tried it?
Perhaps the CC could be persuaded to go along to gypsies and ask them very
nicely if they wouldn't mind putting their nags on a short chain attached
to a longer chain run affixed along the side of the road so that they can
not stray across it. If they do not, they will be moved on and on, so why
not be reasonable?
If you had a horse box, (and a minder) you could take the "thing" in the
highway to the local nick as you would a lost dog. They will sell it in 7
days if the don't put it down.
Is the environmental protection Act of any use? probably not.
Any chance of a friendly farmer depositing a load of dung where the vans
are? Only jesting.
Cj
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From: "Dave Tilbury" <Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:08:00 -0000
Subject: Re: Cambs byways&bridleways
A difficult one. What to you is a nuisance to some is a traditional way of
life. sadly the traditional gypsy way with horses doesn't take a great deal
from the BHS manual either. As part of our society they are not beyond the
law and so the authority should deal with the obstruction. That said my
wife was alone here one day when she spotted a couple of 'fair ground folk'
in the back garden stealing my son's fishing gear. She fled indoors and
dialed 999 but it took over half an hour for plod to arrive. A subsequent
letter seeking information on response times was not answered.
Dave Tilbury
Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
http://www.hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
----------
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From: "Dave Tilbury" <Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:56:05 -0000
Subject: Chocolate tip
Hi
Received a box of Belgian chocs at Christmas (M&S - gold wrapping and
ribbon) and have been under constant pressure ever since, from wife & son
to open them. I knew that once open they would be devoured and that I
would only get one or two of them.
Tip: Ease the ribbon off of one end of the box, open the wrapping paper
and slide out the box of chocs. Close the wrapping and replace the ribbon.
The 'box' - a hollow paper image - can now be put back on the shelf as if
unopened and the chocs taken at a leisurely pace.
Happy new year.
Dave Tilbury
Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
http://www.hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
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From: "Dave Tilbury" <Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:57:27 -0000
Subject: Re: BBC Online report ramblers feud
The answer for Mr Van Hoogstrouser is to move to Wiltshire, for in that
fair county the wealthy can buy a TRO - Oh yes.
Dave Tilbury
Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
http://www.hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
----------
> From: Peter BRADLEY <pbrad@dial.pipex.com>
> To: row@playground.sun.com
> Subject: BBC Online report ramblers feud
> Date: 06 January 1999 14:12
> Wednesday, January 6, 1999 Published at 10:14 GMT
[ truncated by list-digester (was 18 lines)]
> estate in East Sussex on Wednesday.
> The protest is the culmination of a 10-year campaign against a
millionaire
> landowner who has blocked access to a footpath by building a nine-foot
high
> fence across it.
> The Ramblers' Association decided to take legal action against landowner
> Nicholas Van Hoogstraten last December for denying them access after the
> local authority said it could not afford to take him to court.
> Local members have contacted Mr Van Hoogstraten to ask him to unlock the
> gate used to block the footpath.
[ truncated by list-digester (was 12 lines)]
> Mr Van Hoogstraten: Ramblers "are scum"
> Last month, Mr Van Hoogstraten told the BBC the ramblers were "the scum
of
> the earth" and had no right of way across his land.
> The Labour MP Andrew Bennett is calling on the government to act and
> Nicholas Van Hoogstraten last December for denying them access after the
provide
> a statutory right of way for walkers. Mr Bennett, who is president of the
> Ramblers' Association and joint chairman of the Commons environment
select
> committee, told BBC News Online he does not want Mr Van Hoogstraten to
set a
> precedent.
> Andrew Bennett: "This abuse must stop"
> Obviously if one landowner is to be allowed to break the law and close
> footpaths which are registered rights of way, the others will follow," he
> said.
> "The whole aim of the both the Ramblers' Association and myself is to see
[ truncated by list-digester (was 11 lines)]
> this abuse is stopped, that landowners do not break the law by closing
> rights of way, that councils enforce the law an in an increasingly
crowded
> island, people can get out into the country to enjoy peace of mind to
look
> at flowers and wildlife."
> Flexible approach
> The Environment Minister Michael Meacher is looking at a "flexible"
> footpaths which are registered rights of way, the others will follow," he
> said.
approach
> to opening up thousands of acres of countryside to ramblers.
> A keen walker, Mr Meacher told a Countryside Commission conference in
> The Environment Minister Michael Meacher is looking at a "flexible"
London
> last month he was examining a mix of voluntary and legally binding deals
to
> resolve the problem.
> The government has published a consultation paper called the Right to
> The Environment Minister Michael Meacher is looking at a "flexible"
Roam
> following its manifesto pledge to give people more freedom to explore the
UK
> countryside.
> But landowners are complaining that allowing more rights of way will lead
> The Environment Minister Michael Meacher is looking at a "flexible"
to
> expensive security measures to protect livestock from dogs. Ramblers
argue
> that voluntary arrangements with farmers have never worked in the past.
> The Country Landowners' Association is strongly opposed to any new law,
> saying it would lead to the biggest erosion of its members' rights this
> century. It says voluntary agreements are adequate and has published a
> handbook for landowners to "review and improve access on their land".
> 'Not a class war'
[ truncated by list-digester (was 10 lines)]
> 'Not a class war'
> The Conservatives say the government should take a broader view and not
look
> at it as an issue of "class war". A spokesperson for the Countryside
Rights
> Association, representing small farmers and landowners, hit out at
> "bullying" trespassers, who walk all over other people's land.
> "There are many people who own land and gardens who are extremely worried
> century. It says voluntary agreements are adequate and has published a
by
> this interference. What about the bullying ramblers who trespass and
> frighten landowners and make false claims about public rights of way
across
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From: "Bill Richards" <Bill@trail.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:33:34 -0000
Subject: Re: dunlop's fiction - lets get the facts.
Apparently Mr. Dunlop goes 4 wheel drive Green laning anyway !!
A little birdie tells me that prior to the Glatton TRO an article appeared in a
national news
paper about the usual 4x4 horror stories accompanied by a picture of a white
landie deep in some
squelchie ruts. The No. plate was obscured but it had a set of distinctive
stickers over the
rear.
A photo was taken sometime after the TRO of a white landie with matching
stickers parked in Mr.
D's driveway.
Will try and get the full story, dates, photos etc from the birdie when I next
see him/her.
If this is true and can be substantiated, can we use this to muddy the waters
for him ?
Cheers, Bill.
Trail Riders Fellowship http://www.trail.freeserve.co.uk
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From: "Rob Smith" <rob@archenland.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:26:31 -0000
Subject: RE: BBC Online report ramblers feud
This particular event has very little to do with the freedom to roam, it has
much more to do with the illegal obstruction of highways that are on the
DM&S, and the RA have said this very publicly!
I heard the 1O'clock news today, had a report about this.
About 3 dozen ramblers, plus an unspecified number of reporters turned up.
Rather than breakdown the fence, they diverted around it on a track, round
the barn (which the LO gloats he built to prevent people using this
established path), then back to the path and found their way out, having
'inspected' the back of the fence. No action was taken by the LO, or his
employees to prevent this action, despite a number of them seeing this
procession making its way along both the FP concerned, and their
diversionary route. From what I can gather the BBC reporter was one of
those involved!
>From what I've heard it would appear that this course of action may be
'legal', in that they were taking a legitimate diversion around an illegal
obstruction. This was covered in Stacey v Sherrin in 1913, and possibly in
1781 by Lord Justice Mansfield (Taylor v Whitehead) "{Highways] are for the
public service, and if the usual track is impassable, it is for the general
good that people should be entitled to pass on another line" In both these
cases it appears to be specific that the deviation should be on land
belonging to the same LO as the obstructed highway, and that minimum damage
should be caused by performing the deviation.
In this particular case I would say "More power to their elbow!" It would
appear to be the LO's stated case to rid his land of a footpath, he has
attempted various illegal ways of doing so.... I would be a very happy man
if it were proven that this FP actually carried higher rights, the thought
of him finding a couple of horse drawn vehicles using the highway might
finish him off for good.
Rob Smith
Mine's the blue 110
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From: DWr1069469@aol.com
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 15:46:12 EST
Subject: Re: Chocolate tip
Hi Dave,
And I thought I was a miserable bugger, If you want to get the presents you
really want- buy them yourself, wrap them up and give them to your wife, son
etc to give back to you! and suprise suprise, I got a Hi lift jack addapter, a
jack rack, and a Haynes manual.
bloody fantastic!!!!!
Regards
Dave Wright
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From: "Rob Smith" <rob@archenland.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:11:19 -0000
Subject: RE: Cambs byways&bridleways
Not a means I would advise in your current situation, but it works well if
the gypsies are 'camped' in one of your fields:
Load your muck spreader with what ever is to hand, the smellier & runnier
the better (pigs and chickens score well).
Inform the encamped parties that at 5 AM the next day you will start
spreading liquid, organic fertiliser on your fields, this is best done late
at night.
Retire for the night.
Get up at 5 AM, and start tractor; move into the field, as far from the camp
as possible and start the spreading.
It is estimated that the campers were on their way by 5:15!
Stop spreading, the smell is getting on your stomach, but the 'campers' have
moved on!
Your situation is a bit like that encountered in Hampshire a couple of years
ago - I think it lead to the CC building 'bunds' and chicanes across the
ends of a number of BW & BOAT, I'm certain DT will fill you in on such
details. Simple question, but why must they use a PRoW to graze their
stock, can't they lease a bit of land from some hard up farmer?
(Oops forgot, they don't like paying money)
Rob Smith
Mine's the blue 110
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From: "Rob Smith" <rob@archenland.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:11:23 -0000
Subject: RE: Chocolate tip
Nice thinking Dave, a man after my own heart!
Another tip along the same lines:
When eating 'Club' biscuits and the like, carefully remove the wrappers,
then refold to 'full dimensions and replace on the tray. Watch with
detached amusement as someone else picks up the empty wrapper....
Rob Smith
Mine's the blue 110
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From: "Rob Smith" <rob@archenland.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:11:27 -0000
Subject: RE: dunlop's fiction - lets get the facts.
Good luck in tracking down that little bird!!!
I think it might do more than muddy the water for him - utterly discredit
would be nearer the truth. But then he's a slippery what's it and will
probably claim some lie or other in his defence.
Rob Smith
Mine's the blue 110
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From: doghouse@cix.compulink.co.uk (Michael Dyer)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 99 21:45 GMT0
Subject: Re: dunlop's transportation - lets get the facts.
<<<If this is true and can be substantiated, can we use this to muddy the
waters for him ?>>>
Oh yes this in certain quarters is called 'manna from heaven'......
:-) Mick Dyer (doghouse@cix)
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From: "hawker" <hawker@poverty.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:52:40 -0000
Subject: Re: BBC Online report ramblers feud
Rob writes
>>Rather than breakdown the fence, they diverted around it on a track, round
the barn (which the LO gloats he built to prevent people using this
established path), then back to the path and found their way out, having
'inspected' the back of the fence. No action was taken by the LO, or his
employees to prevent this action, despite a number of them seeing this
procession making its way along both the FP concerned, and their
diversionary route. <<
With any luck, this will establish a new, second, right of way on the same
land owner's property, and give him twice the f------ headache he thought he
had before. And it's all documented by the Beeb!
That's nice!
rh
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From: Chris Marsden <Byway@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:22:46 -0500
Subject: Re: dunlop's fiction - lets get the facts.
Julian
> This could be the council commenting on forestry and agriculture, not
> recreational motoring. On the other hand most people would admit there
is a
> minority of people who go in for the Camel Trophy Green Lane Experience.
Yup. So IF any questionnaire was sent it would have to be very carefully
worded to identify the type of road, ie public vehicular, AND whether any
"problems" IF they exist, have been identified to user (Aggriforest or
leisure), and identified so we can confirm if they are right. (sometimes,
but not always it is possible to identify, but how can they blame one group
if they can't identify positively.)
> If we ask any authority 'do you have any problems with recreational use',
> they'll probably say 'not on the whole but there have been isolated
> instances'. you could interpret this into Mr. Dunlop's comments.
That's why IF any approach was made they should be asked to identify some
examples to avoid generalisations.
> So what we have is someone who is in my opinion twisting the truth, not
> necessarily lying, but pretty close!
> instances'. you could interpret this into Mr. Dunlop's comments.
But he's a gleam officer, so surely one has to have a degree in lying to
get elected, or have I got it wrong?
But it is sure gleam will keep will keep asking the loaded, or ambigous
questions, and twisting and translating them their evil way, whether or not
we ask our own one-off survey. So if we wrote positively asserting (as MBB)
that there is no general problem, and asking them to confirm that is the
case for them, or ask them to give examples if not. Once every 5 years
might be a risk worth taking to be able to fight his fiction with facts -
from HAs.
Chris
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From: Chris Marsden <Byway@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:22:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Warks 116
> The Divisional Surveyor tells me that the route is obstructed by a fence
south
> of the river, a step in the ford itself on the north exit, and garden
fences
> near Grey Mill Cottage. He also advises that there are trees growing
across
> the route.
> The only thing holding up a Byway application, I think, is not knowing
the
> names and addresses of the landowners. But he does not know who owns the
> route, (and might not say if he knew).
I did ask for BOAT application forms. I asked for L/O names. If they have
them to consult, yet wil not make them avalable for a BOAT application,
that seem like they are being obstructive to those who should be using the
highway.
Todays post said:-
ackn my letter 5/1/99, reffered to Div srvyr for comments & will write
again. I would say HA has not agreed to proceed with an appl to stop-up. A
req has been recd, & I am undertaking INFORMAL consult with Loc Auth, adj
L/O, stat U/T to ascertain whether an appl to stop up may be approp.
I have req consultn by end Jan. I will then consider further and advise.
Points raised will be considered... Liz Zikking for Cty Sol & dep clerk to
Co.
No Forms! No L/O names. But they did say ADJACENT L/Os so no doubt it is
not registered in any ones name. I bet it was not coloured on FA map. Nor
at Land Registery. So only serve it on CC as L/O. I think notifying L/O
should only be for bridleways and footpaths anyway, that was the position
in 1910, they had deductions for those ways and no incremental tax due on
roads.
> An alternative approach is via HA 80 s 56, as he admitted that the route
> route, (and might not say if he knew).
was
> repairable and out of repair.
I would be happy to serve a notice if they intend to procede.
> Please can someone help with more info? I hope to visit the site myself
> route, (and might not say if he knew).
but
> next week is busy with meetings already.
> route, (and might not say if he knew).
I assume you read letter from Tony Ingram I posted on list. This site is
about 50 odd miles from me, but just arranged to visit Pershore Tuesday, so
fairly sure I should be able to visit it then.
Chris
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:54:55 EST
Subject: Re: Chocolate tip
In a message dated 07 : 01 : 99 09:12 GMT, you write:
<< Watch with
detached amusement as someone else picks up the empty wrapper.... >>
I remember seeing this trick done with a boiled egg, but I fell out of my high
chair laughing.
Tim
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:54:56 EST
Subject: Re: Cambs byways&bridleways
In a message dated 07 : 01 : 99 09:13 GMT, you write:
<< Simple question, but why must they use a PRoW to graze their
stock, can't they lease a bit of land from some hard up farmer?
>>
How about -
1. They do not trust farmers (eg shit sprayers)
2. Farmers do not trust them (eg they won't go)
3. The planning laws are agin it, it counts as running a caravan site
And remember the one about the minorities in Germany? A plague on all you
shit-sprayers. How would you like your six-months baby sprayed with shit?
Disgusted of Market Drayton
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:54:48 EST
Subject: Re: dunlop's fiction - lets get the facts.
Spill the beans by all means, but do remember that this is an open list. It
mught not be so effective to announce to the world which beans are going to be
next.
Walls have ears (but Palethorpes go the whole hog).
Cheers, tim
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:54:54 EST
Subject: Re: BBC Online report ramblers feud
In a message dated 07 : 01 : 99 08:27 GMT, you write:
<< In both these
cases it appears to be specific that the deviation should be on land
belonging to the same LO as the obstructed highway >>
Not necessarily, and anyway, how, in most cases, are you expected to know who
owns which bit of land?
There is a legal quote ending with something like 'to the extent of breaking
the close and entering the corn'. from the time when close = modern field,
about 1650 I think.
Cheers, tim
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From: doghouse@cix.compulink.co.uk (Michael Dyer)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 99 04:39 GMT0
Subject: RE: Mr Hagen Daazs private footpath
Rob hopes to find higher rights on the footpath in question.
Yes, indeed, Rob, it would be nice, but given Mr Hottentots alleged
reputation for dealing with 'scum' I think I'd want a BBc reporter or two
along on _every_ excursion.
:-) Mick Dyer (doghouse@cix)
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From: davidg@hwcces.demon.co.uk (David Goode)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:40:19 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: Upper lye & Roman Road 3866 4442
I'm still having to remind them they've not replied to my letter in
October except to acknowledge it and say they'd be answering shortly.
If it was a bone fide TRO they'd already have the facts to hand
before the TRO was published.
David Goode davidg@hwcces.demon.co.uk
Environmental Services Dept
Hereford and Worcester County Council
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[ <- Message 24 -> end
| Table of Contents | <- Digest 990108 ->
| Search
Archive Index
| <-
Browser ->
]
END OF * LIST DIGEST
Input: messages 23 lines 1156 [forwarded 155 whitespace 0]
Output: lines 766 [content 576 forwarded 136 (cut 19) whitespace 0]
[ First Message
| Table of Contents
| <- Digest 990108 ->
| Search
Archive Index
| <-
Browser ->
]