msg	Sender	lines	Subject
1	"Julian Watt" [julian@mi	24	Re: dunlop's fiction - lets get the facts. (Landroverish bit)
2	TimLARA@aol.com	34	Action please - new threat in Scotland
3	"Dave Tilbury" [Dave@han	27	Re: Chocolate tip
4	"Dave Tilbury" [Dave@han	40	Re: dunlop's fiction - lets get the facts. (Landroverish bit)
5	"Dave Tilbury" [Dave@han	47	Re: Cambs byways&bridleways
6	"Dave Tilbury" [Dave@han	48	Re: dunlop's fiction - lets get the facts.
7	Chris Marsden [Byway@com	21	Re: dunlop's fiction - lets get the facts.
8	Chris Lloyd [chris@upand	20	ROW
9	Chris Marsden [Byway@com	46	Re: Upper lye & Roman Road 3866 4442
10	Chris Marsden [Byway@com	91	Action please - new threat in Scotland
11	TimLARA@aol.com	19	Re: Action please - new threat in Scotland
12	TimLARA@aol.com	15	Re: Upper lye & Roman Road 3866 4442
13	TimLARA@aol.com	19	Re: Action please - new threat in Scotland
14	TimLARA@aol.com	10	Sorry, wrong subject line
15	"hawker" [hawker@poverty	16	Re: ROW
16	Michael Taylor [mikeandc	14	WARKS 116
17	"Dave Tilbury" [Dave@han	18	Re: ROW
	Majordomo		About the digest

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From: "Julian Watt" <julian@mindnet.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:41:25 -0000
Subject: Re: dunlop's fiction - lets get the facts. (Landroverish bit)

He did have a Landrover parked outside his house for quite some time, he
claimes it was his brothers. He drives a white jap sportish car usually with
a blue light on the roof as he's a fireman involved with chemical hazards
etc....wouldn't it be a shame if he got blown up?

He's not a particularly bright person, but he's very good at twisting
information, for instance, he did once say that a pond on the lane had
greater crested newts in it, the council said there were no newts but felt
the pond was suitable for them.  Also, publically he said a local wood had
been bulldozed because off pressure from off roaders, this was also rubbish,
an overgrown lane had been cut back no treas felled only the usual howthorn
kind of stuff.

Perhaps we should try and get all of his statements together on the web so
we can all investigate their vallidity?

Julian Watt
Blue 90 200Tdi

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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 05:41:00 EST
Subject: Action please - new threat in Scotland

Hello everyone and happy new hogmanay

There is a serious threat to one of the most historic cross-border routes -
Dere Street. It runs from Northumberland to Scottish Borders.

The landowner on a Scottish section has asked the authority to downgrade it
from road to Footpath & Cycleway, and the authority is in process of doinmg
this. Notice for objections was posted on 24 Dec, and we have 28 days to
respond. If enough responses are received, a PI will be held at which we
should be able to defend our use of this ancient highway.
Note that they cannot downgrade in a way that preserves Bridleway rights, in
Scotland. Therefore this route will also cease to be available to horse riders
as well as vehicular users, if they succeed. 

I have little further detail (its in the post) but you can object on what I
give here, by letter or fax, to
Scottish Borders UA
Attention Ms Pat Thom, Legal Dept
Newtown St Boswells
Melrose
TD6 0SA
For more detail now, ask them -
Phone 01835 824 000
Fax 01835 822 145

I will post further detail when it arrives.

Cheers, tim

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From: "Dave Tilbury" <Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:22:45 -0000
Subject: Re: Chocolate tip

Yes, yes.  My wife was very excited about the mountain bike I bought her 
(about 14 years ago) until she noticed that it had a cross bar (they didn't
make ladies mtbs in those days) and 15 gears.  :-)

Dave Tilbury
Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
http://www.hants-lanes.demon.co.uk

----------
> From: DWr1069469@aol.com
> To: row@playground.sun.com
> Subject: Re: Chocolate tip
> Date: 07 January 1999 20:46
> Hi Dave,
> And I thought I was a miserable bugger, If you want to get the presents

you
> really want- buy them yourself, wrap them up and give them to your wife,
son
> etc to give back to you! and suprise suprise, I got a Hi lift jack
addapter, a

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From: "Dave Tilbury" <Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:43:41 -0000
Subject: Re: dunlop's fiction - lets get the facts. (Landroverish bit)

On the radio (with TS) he stated that only 40% of RUPPs and only 50% of
county roads carried VR.  Clearly complete bollox as most county roads have
a sealed surface and probably less than 5% are 'green'.

Dave Tilbury
Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
http://www.hants-lanes.demon.co.uk

----------
> From: Julian Watt <julian@mindnet.freeserve.co.uk>
> To: row@playground.sun.com
> Subject: Re: dunlop's fiction - lets get the facts. (Landroverish bit)
> Date: 08 January 1999 09:41
> He did have a Landrover parked outside his house for quite some time, he
> claimes it was his brothers. He drives a white jap sportish car usually

with
> a blue light on the roof as he's a fireman involved with chemical hazards
> etc....wouldn't it be a shame if he got blown up?
> He's not a particularly bright person, but he's very good at twisting
> information, for instance, he did once say that a pond on the lane had
> greater crested newts in it, the council said there were no newts but
> claimes it was his brothers. He drives a white jap sportish car usually
felt
> the pond was suitable for them.  Also, publically he said a local wood
had
> been bulldozed because off pressure from off roaders, this was also
rubbish,
> an overgrown lane had been cut back no treas felled only the usual
howthorn
> kind of stuff.
> Perhaps we should try and get all of his statements together on the web
> He's not a particularly bright person, but he's very good at twisting
so

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From: "Dave Tilbury" <Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:31:02 -0000
Subject: Re: Cambs byways&bridleways

<< I'm certain DT will fill you in on such
details.  >>

The Hants problem is not gypsies but new aged travelers.  Some are fine and
clear up after themselves but others are a tad anti social - violent etc. 
Whilst out one day we found a lane completely blocked with parked cars -
just like Sainsbury's on a Saturday afternoon - with punters buying (one
assumes) e and dope.  What ever you do, do not put NATs down as
dispossessed.  It is a manufactured 'cult' that is big business for some,
just as any other fashion thing.

Dave Tilbury
Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
http://www.hants-lanes.demon.co.uk

----------
> From: Rob Smith <rob@archenland.demon.co.uk>
> To: row@playground.sun.com
> Subject: RE: Cambs byways&bridleways
> Date: 07 January 1999 21:11
> Not a means I would advise in your current situation, but it works well

if
> the gypsies are 'camped' in one of your fields:
> Load your muck spreader with what ever is to hand, the smellier & runnier
> the better (pigs and chickens score well).
> Inform the encamped parties that at 5 AM the next day you will start
> spreading liquid, organic fertiliser on your fields, this is best done
late
> at night.
> Retire for the night.
> Get up at 5 AM, and start tractor; move into the field, as far from the
camp
> as possible and start the spreading.
> It is estimated that the campers were on their way by 5:15!
> Stop spreading, the smell is getting on your stomach, but the 'campers'
have
> moved on!
> Your situation is a bit like that encountered in Hampshire a couple of
> Stop spreading, the smell is getting on your stomach, but the 'campers'
years

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From: "Dave Tilbury" <Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:36:25 -0000
Subject: Re: dunlop's fiction - lets get the facts.

Me thinks that Tim is right on this one.  At the end of the day we would be
making a rod for our own buts.

Dave Tilbury
Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
http://www.hants-lanes.demon.co.uk

----------
> From: Chris Marsden <Byway@compuserve.com>
> To: row@playground.sun.com
> Subject: Re: dunlop's fiction - lets get the facts.
> Date: 08 January 1999 00:22
> Julian

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 13 lines)]
> is a
> > minority of people who go in for the Camel Trophy Green Lane
Experience.
> Yup.  So IF any questionnaire was sent it would have to be very carefully
> worded to identify the type of road, ie public vehicular, AND whether any
> "problems" IF they exist, have been identified to user (Aggriforest or
> leisure), and identified so we can confirm if they are right. (sometimes,
> but not always it is possible to identify, but how can they blame one
group
> if they can't identify positively.)
> > If we ask any authority 'do you have any problems with recreational
> "problems" IF they exist, have been identified to user (Aggriforest or
> leisure), and identified so we can confirm if they are right. (sometimes,
use',
> > they'll probably say 'not on the whole but there have been isolated
> > instances'. you could interpret this into Mr. Dunlop's comments.
> That's why IF any approach was made they should be asked to identify some
> examples to avoid generalisations. 
> > So what we have is someone who is in my opinion twisting the truth, not
> > necessarily lying, but pretty close!
> > instances'. you could interpret this into Mr. Dunlop's comments.
	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 15 lines)]
> But it is sure gleam will keep will keep asking the loaded, or ambigous
> questions, and twisting and translating them their evil way, whether or
not
> we ask our own one-off survey. So if we wrote positively asserting (as
MBB)

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From: Chris Marsden <Byway@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:26:02 -0500
Subject: Re: dunlop's fiction - lets get the facts.

> Will try and get the full story, dates, photos etc from the birdie when I

next see him/her.
> If this is true and can be substantiated, can we use this to muddy the

waters for him ?
> If this is true and can be substantiated, can we use this to muddy the

Another little birdie a few hundred metres away told me that his mug was
pictured in the Daily Mail some time back with a Landie driving on "His"
muddy bridleway. (Inclosure Pv CR so not owned by anyone as I understands.)
 One may well wonder just what he was up to. Making a problems to say look
at the problem?

Surely the nice Cambridge Condom would not do that?

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From: Chris Lloyd <chris@upandrun.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:41:54 -0000 
Subject: ROW

Hi All
My name is Chris Lloyd and I am rights of way officer for Thames Valley
TRF (Trail Riders Fellowship).  Please add my email address to any ROW
mailing lists etc or advise me of where to go to do so. If there are any
issues that you think our group may be able to help with (user evidence
etc) please reply to chris@upandrun.co.uk

Are there any online resources for ROW issues, ie if we want to report
TRO's or obstructions etc?

Thanks for any help

Best regards
Chris Lloyd

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From: Chris Marsden <Byway@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:37:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Upper lye & Roman Road 3866 4442

> I'm still having to remind them they've not replied to my letter in 
> October except to acknowledge it and say they'd be answering shortly. 
> If it was a bone fide TRO they'd already have the facts to hand 
> before the TRO was published.

What you too, David?

Tim, I asked if you could attend a meeting with this delinquent county at
the end of this week.  They were to have arranged it last week. I am
submitting another formal complaint about the treatment of my last
complaint, (unless it arrives in post tomorrow).

I have used their form so I can't post it here but basically
1 Original complaint not dealt with as per their complaints procedure
2 proposed meeting not arranged as promised
3 Obstructions not removed from highways
4 No: details of TRO,  location of 'claimed Roman remains,  reasons for
non-enforcement at Upper Lye, whether roads admitted under s56 are admitted
as being OOR, replies to various letters since 23/10/98.

when they ask "How did we respond?" 
I said by remaining silent on most substantive points,  and failing to get
back in touch.

But when they rang up to ask for a meeting (on Christmas Eve),  they did
say I do have grounds for complaint.  Seems they want to make sure the
complaint is worthwhile !!!!!!!

I might suggest they give the UCRs to RoW to control.  Had an ackn.  from
Teresa today of my complaint earlier this week of other obstructions.  They
don't let the grass grow under their feet.

Spoke to Gilbert, Hereford Time editor yesterday. Why hadn't he published
my letter? He's had 70 letters on the subject.  A neighbour dropped a copy
of one in.  (He's actually my steward to the Manor you know!)  I was going
to say I was going to the PCC about dunlops 'misunderstanding' (lies to
anyone else), if he didn't publish a correction. But he said he will, if
it's short. B Cheek after that foreigner's 470 word missive.

Cj

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From: Chris Marsden <Byway@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:36:58 -0500
Subject: Action please - new threat in Scotland

> There is a serious threat to one of the most historic cross-border routes

-
> Dere Street. It runs from Northumberland to Scottish Borders.

Attention Ms Pat Thom, Legal Dept
Newtown St Boswells
Melrose
TD6 0SA

Phone   01835 824 000
Fax     01835 822 145

Dear Ms Thom,

Re: Highways Act 1980 S116 Stopping Up Order. Dere St. Objection

I have learnt there is an intention to stop-up this ancient road. Can you
please confirm this, and provide details.  What rights will remain as
proposed, as a through route? Will equestrian rights also be curtailed?  Is
this at the behest of a landowner? This is a road which I would expect to
be be able to use and very much hope to be able to continue to do so. I am
sure you will appreciate the burden of proof you will be put to, to show
that this road is un-necessary FOR THE PUBLIC, and that it is NOT being
done for the Landowner's interests. This of course would be Ultra Vires and
consequently could lead to surcharging, (as Ms Shirley Porter will be happy
to testify).

Vehicular rights are required for a multitude of purposes even if rarely
used.  They prevent ploughing, encroachment of the surface and are normally
easier to follow and to use than mere footpaths or cycleways. They retain
more of the original character.  What is the alternative route,  please
note, a tarred surfaced road with fast traffic is most certainly NOT an
adequate alternative route. Such representations will be made to the
magistrates court.  I would ask you to hold a Public Inquiry into the
closure of this road, if you intend to proceed.

Lord Justice Lane's dictum in R v Surrey CC ex parte Send PC, 1979 sets out
the law as follows - 'The local authority must at all times act with the
object of protecting the highway and of preventing or removing any
obstruction, and, more broadly speaking, of promoting the interests of
those who enjoy the highway or should be enjoying the right of way and the
county council must likewise operate against the interests of those who
seek to interrupt such enjoyment of the highway'

This course of action (s116)  is advised against in Making the Best of
Byways, and in Circular 2/93.

Have you considered the possibility that this road may not be being used by
the public due to your lack of publicity of minor roads such as this? 
Would it not seem sensible to wait until such time as, signing has been
carried out in accordance with Making the Best of Byways, the road has been
depicted as ‘Public Access Information’ by the OS,  then, and only then
following prolonged dis-use would it be reasonable to infer that this road
is no longer required by the public?   Do you wish B.O.A.T. DMMO’s to be
submitted on your own forms, or would the pro-forma in the Blue Book be
acceptable to your council?  Can you supply details of all the landowners
who you are aware of, that should be notified of such an application
please.  (I will be suggesting to the magistrate’s court that any such BOAT
application should be determined  BEFORE a decision is made to give away
this valuable public asset for ever more.)  Personally I am surprised that
any attempt should be made to deprive the public of byways such as this
following MBoB by means of an HA80 s116. Has MBoB been accepted by your
council?

I am sure you are aware of the embarrassing, failed attempts at the s116
procedure by Kent,  Hereford & Worcestershire and Buckinghamshire* County
Councils?  Are you prepared to justify the expenditure of substantial sums
to justify such action, or is the applicant so desperate that they are
re-reimbursing all direct and consequential costs of this action?

*  Buckinghamshire’s legal department advised there was a very real
likelihood of costs being awarded against the council for wasting the
court’s time. Would the applicant be prepared to pay for this eventuality? 
If not, would the council’s auditors tolerate such expenditure without
making a qualification to the accounts?

YS
Will be faxed Sat.   
-
What do you call a judge with no thumbs?
-
'Justice fingers'
-
Cj

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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:30:24 EST
Subject: Re: Action please - new threat in Scotland

I hope it is not too late to ask Byway to change his message. 

I now think they are trying to downgrade using a Roads Scotland Act (or some
similar name) which is like our T&CP Act allowing closure etc following
planning changes. That is why it goes to SoS and PI rather than Magistrates
Court, and the criteria are not 'not needed' but 'improve the amenity of the
area' or some such.

So, can any objection being to closure or downgrading in general terma, rather
than HA80 s116 or any other specific Act, until we are sure?
Which I hope will be Monday.

Cheers, tim LARA

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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:30:26 EST
Subject: Re: Upper lye & Roman Road 3866 4442

In a message dated 08 : 01 : 99 07:38 GMT, you write:

<< Tim, I asked if you could attend a meeting with this delinquent county at
 the end of this week. >>

I am still on for a meeting, and await advice re day, time, millennium, etc.
But not Jan 13, 15, 16, 18, 23, 29. (so far)

Cheers, tim

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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:39:45 EST
Subject: Re: Action please - new threat in Scotland

Help! 
Is there anyone ouit there with a program that will open a MIM file?
AOL seems unable to cope wuith such things, and I get pages of garbage. I can
cope with ZIPs JPEGs etc, but not MIMs. Or perhaps I can and I have not yet
found the program which opens them as MIMs and not as text files.

Cheers, tim

PS Dave, as you might guess, I cannot view the Dorset pics. Try attaching the
JPEGs as a ZIP file?
Ta mate

Tim

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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:43:25 EST
Subject: Sorry, wrong subject line

My last message re MIMs was nowt to do wi bonny Scotland.
Sorry.

Tim

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From: "hawker" <hawker@poverty.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:01:18 -0000
Subject: Re: ROW

I send out the copies of notices from the London Gazette to each respondent
within the area of County Council Highway Authorities. Can you let me know
if you are undertaking Rights of Way work for the TV Group, and which
Councils you deal with, e.g. Berkshire, Surrey, or wherever?

If you are performing this function, I will send you the appropriate notices
by e-mail in the future, if that is OK with you, but just let me know for
which authorities.

Richard Hawker

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From: Michael Taylor <mikeandchris.taylor@virgin.net>
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 20:25:19 +0000
Subject: WARKS 116

Hi all,
Letter from Warks CC in response to my objection. Only informal
consultation at the moment which will expire at end of January. Request
to stop up the road has been recieved but no decision whether or not to
proceed will be taken untill after informal consultation.  Get
consulting you lot!
P.S. Tim, did the details of this one get copied to the GLASS list?
Cheers,Mike.

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From: "Dave Tilbury" <Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:59:02 -0000
Subject: Re: ROW

<<If there are any
issues that you think our group may be able to help with >>

Yes.  Assassinate Still and that twat Gardner.  Well you did ask and I am
surely entitled to one new years wish.

;-)

Dave Tilbury
Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
http://www.hants-lanes.demon.co.uk

----------

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