msg	Sender	lines	Subject
1	"Bod" [bod@bod1.freeserv	35	Re: Another hunt, another trunk, another cafe
2	"Bod" [bod@bod1.freeserv	23	Licensing the Installation of Drains (was: Re: Agro-cultural damage in
3	"Bod" [bod@bod1.freeserv	17	Re: Another hunt, another trunk, another cafe
4	"Dave Tilbury" [Dave@han	13	Re: Bennett in Manchester Metro News
5	"Dave Tilbury" [Dave@han	12	Re: OS Explorers
6	Brian Lewis [brian@limb.	18	Re: OS Explorers
7	davidg@hwcces.demon.co.u	17	Re: Devils Spittleful, Kidderminster/Stourport on Severn
8	Chris Marsden [Byway@com	15	Re: Bennett in Manchester Metro News
9	Chris Marsden [Byway@com	23	Re: OS Explorers
10	TimLARA@aol.com	14	Re: E5221 complaint
11	doghouse@cix.compulink.c	20	Re: OS Explorers
12	Susan Jeggo [derek.sue@v	14	web site
13	howard.neal@which.net	32	Re: Ridgeway Potential TRO
14	"Rob Smith" [rob@archenl	12	RE: Licensing the Installation of Drains (was: Re: Agro-cultural
15	"Dave Tilbury" [Dave@han	14	FAO Chris Lloyd
16	TimLARA@aol.com	32	Re: West Berks Vindictive TRO (Somme) Glass & RoW
17	TimLARA@aol.com	18	Re: web site
18	Susan Jeggo [derek.sue@v	21	Web site
19	Chris Marsden [Byway@com	51	Re: Ridgeway Potential TRO
20	Chris Marsden [Byway@com	32	Re: OS Explorers
21	Chris Marsden [Byway@com	23	web site
22	"Matthew Reeve & Mel Mau	23	Re: Was Re: Ridgeway Potential TRO
	Majordomo		About the digest

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From: "Bod" <bod@bod1.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:04:50 -0000
Subject: Re: Another hunt, another trunk, another cafe

>   causing an obstruction, in the way I am when I close a gate

If it is only moved in an attempt to clear the obstruction then you
will almost certainly be alright because you have not caused the
obstruction, only moved it.    Furthermore, who is going to bring
proceedings against you?   The LO cannot because he has previously
allowed the obstruction to remain and thus is guilty himself.

If however, you manage to pull the obstruction clear and then it
inadvertently slips back into a position where it is obstructing the
highway again but now you cannot pull it clear again then that might
be a different matter.     I think you would have to rely on the
common sense of the judge (some hope there then!) if you were unlucky
enough to have such a case brought against you.

> b) if someone comes along and sits/climbs on it and it rolls over,
>   runs into it or otherwise injures/damages themselves am I liable
>   as the last person to have done anything with it?

Not if you did not place it in such a position that it could be
reasonably foreseen to be more dangerous than it previously was to
anyone that you might expect to be there.   The Occupiers Liability
Act 1984 makes the farmer/LO liable if he can be shown to be
reasonably aware of the dangerous situation.

All personal opinion off the top of my head.#

Cheers,
Bod.

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From: "Bod" <bod@bod1.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:47:05 -0000
Subject: Licensing the Installation of Drains (was: Re: Agro-cultural damage in 
Staffordshire)

>Unequivocably YES he does have to get permission
>HA80s131(1)(a)&(b), 131A(2)

s131 does not allow a license to be granted - it states the penalty.

>The difference in footpath/bridleway and BOAT situation is HA80s(135)
>which does not allow for such on a carriageway and he would require a
>streetworks licence under the streetworks act (which I don't have a
>copy of).

AFAIK The Streetworks Act only applies to urban, surfaced highways -
but I do not have a copy either - I will look it up later if I get a
chance.     HA80 s181 is the bit which allows a HA to grant a license
for the installation of apparatus (including drains) and this license
will usually allow for the excavations needed to install the
apparatus.

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From: "Bod" <bod@bod1.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:09:11 -0000
Subject: Re: Another hunt, another trunk, another cafe

>The straight answer is, I do not know. But I guess that in case (a)
you could
>claim that any remaining obstruction after you got your Land Rover
through was
>de minimis.

That really does depend on the exact nature of the highway and the
normal traffic.

Cheers,
Bod.

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From: "Dave Tilbury" <Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:03:24 -0000
Subject: Re: Bennett in Manchester Metro News

<<Is a road (private roads excepted) not a public right of way ?

Read B&B 1+2 1987.  Private Roads - Colin Seymour.

Dave Tilbury
Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
http://www.hants-lanes.demon.co.uk

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From: "Dave Tilbury" <Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:02:01 -0000
Subject: Re: OS Explorers

There are several lanes that are not shown at all on sheet 185
(Winchester).

Dave Tilbury
Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
http://www.hants-lanes.demon.co.uk

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From: Brian Lewis <brian@limb.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:22:16 +0000
Subject: Re: OS Explorers

In message <bulk.7672.19990205010919@Land-Rover.Team.Net>, Dave Tilbury
<Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk> writes
Hi Dave

We have a problem on sheet 98 in so much as not the complete route is
shown just enough is omitted to make it not a through route.

Who said what goes on the maps?

I rang the Council and the said that they had no say.

Was it the OS?

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From: davidg@hwcces.demon.co.uk (David Goode)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 13:56:03 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: Devils Spittleful, Kidderminster/Stourport on Severn

Dave says
> I don't think that conditional DMMOs of this nature are totally cosha. 

It wasn't actually a conditional DMMO but the condition for 
allowing the order to be made under delegated authority was that a 
TRO would be in place first ........ probably also un-cosha (that one 
silenced the spell-checker!)

David Goode                                davidg@hwcces.demon.co.uk
Environmental Services Dept
Hereford and Worcester County Council

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From: Chris Marsden <Byway@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:28:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Bennett in Manchester Metro News

> Read B&B 1+2 1987.  Private Roads - Colin Seymour.

Unfortunately some of us do not have the benefit of such wonderful
long-past works available. The library does not stock them.......

Perhaps there should be a Webb site? interspersed with pictures of
obstructions and tractor ruts!

Chris

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From: Chris Marsden <Byway@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:28:20 -0500
Subject: Re: OS Explorers

> There are several lanes that are not shown at all on sheet 185
> (Winchester).

Astounding!  Cads. What are they playing at.  Too far away to go and survey
them I expect.

What status? UUCRs?  We need to know why, who is being selective, HA, OS,
policy(who's),  bungs, simple error?
Are they green, and are they usable?

No one comented on my OS letter, so I guess no one has any concerns or
other questions, (other than Tim's helpful idea of separating in two
letters the policy from practical examples.)

You could ask for a refund - map not fit for purpose?

Chris

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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:08:56 EST
Subject: Re: E5221 complaint

In a message dated 04 : 02 : 99 12:53 GMT Standard Time, Byway@Compuserve.com
writes:

<< Is "8" a mis type? >>
Yes, should have been Shift 8 = *
And s116 should be Shift 116 = 56...

Too near to midnight.

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From: doghouse@cix.compulink.co.uk (Michael Dyer)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 99 17:10 GMT0
Subject: Re: OS Explorers

Chris asks

What status? UUCRs?  We need to know why, who is being selective, HA, OS,
policy(who's),  bungs, simple error?
Are they green, and are they usable?>>>

A perfect example of exactly what the NGLDB can assist with.

Tim and I will be talking, send ALL known examples with NGRs start/finish 
to me please

73s and 88s

:-) Mick Dyer (doghouse@cix)

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From: Susan Jeggo <derek.sue@virgin.net>
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 17:39:01 +0000
Subject: web site

Chris said
"Unfortunately some of us do not have the benefit of such wonderful
long-past works available. The library does not stock them.......
Perhaps there should be a Webb site? interspersed with pictures of
obstructions and tractor ruts!"

yes, and some means of access to ROWLR!
Sue

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From: howard.neal@which.net
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 17:14:19 +0000
Subject: Re: Ridgeway Potential TRO

I think that a LARA voluntary restraint on the Ridgeway might be a good idea
if it will prevent a TRO.   It would ideally have to allow provision for
roads crossing the Ridgeway, both directly and obliquely.  As the vast
majority of use is at the weekend it might be acceptable to not to ban
traffic midweek.  The signs at the entry points would have to bit larger
than the normal A4 probably nearer to eight by ten feet!  The existing code
of practice notices are about four by three and nobody looks at those.

With regard to unregistered drag racing trail bikes I have seen them also,
usually on Sundays and many ridden, not by yoofs, but  by people who are old
enough to know better.  I sometimes wonder if these idiots know they are
acting illegally and that the Ridgeway is actually a public road.  They
probably have no idea.  Perhaps some large signs at the car parks would
remind them.  This would also apply to the shiny 4x4 owners that think it's
OK to let their children drive.  It should also be pointed out that in the
summer you will find more Mondeos etc. than 4x4s on some sections.  Mondeo
man likes to drive along and find a vacant spot to picnic.

I usually avoid the Ridgeway like the plague even in good weather.  It is
just too popular and being a miserable bugger I prefer to lane alone. If I
drive along it at all it is only for a few yards to reach the next tributary
lane.

Regards,

Howard

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From: "Rob Smith" <rob@archenland.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 18:30:47 -0000
Subject: RE: Licensing the Installation of Drains (was: Re: Agro-cultural 
damage in Staffordshire)

Highways said it applies to BOATs as well, but not FP/BW - yet another good
argument for BOAT over BW/FP? - unless you are a drain digging farmer ;-)

Rob Smith
Mine's the blue 110

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From: "Dave Tilbury" <Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:23:42 -0000
Subject: FAO Chris Lloyd

Chris

I'm having problems mailing you direct.  I have responded to your query but
 ...... thada ledder keeps a comin back ...

Dave Tilbury
Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
http://www.hants-lanes.demon.co.uk

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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:50:36 EST
Subject: Re: West Berks Vindictive TRO (Somme) Glass & RoW

In a message dated 04 : 02 : 99 09:34 GMT Standard Time, howard.neal@which.net
writes:

<< How does a temporary prohibition of driving order (made under Section 14(1)
of the
 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984) differ from a TRO?  When applied to a RoW
does
 it apply to the landowner as well as the general public?  Presumably as it
 prohibits driving, bicycles, motor-bikes and mounted horses are exempt. >>

1. It is a TRO but temporary, 18 months max, (only 6 on RUPP, BW, FP), and
without the normal (longwinded) consultation processes.

2. Yes, he is affected except if it says 'Except for Access to Land etc
adjoining...' But how it will be enforced against the LO is a different
matter.

3. Driving is a general term, certainly including motorcycles. The order may
extend to all traffic, all vehicles, all motors, all motors with more than 2
or 3 wheels, all blue buses with 22 seats, whatever is necessary. The signs
must correspond with the order to be enforceable.

There are in fact 4 types of TRO, permanent, temporary, emergency, and
experimental.

Cheers, tim

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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:05:45 EST
Subject: Re: web site

In a message dated 05 : 02 : 99 05:39 GMT Standard Time, derek.sue@virgin.net
writes:

<<  some means of access to ROWLR! >>

There is, there is. Just make your cheque out to RoWLR ...

Have you thought that the BHS (or some other august user group) might be
subscribing, and might not have asked for its full allocation of cheap(er)
copies? I think you can have Four in total, one full price, three much less.

Cheers, tim

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From: Susan Jeggo <derek.sue@virgin.net>
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 21:26:11 +0000
Subject: Web site

Tim said,
There is, there is. Just make your cheque out to RoWLR ...
         Yes, but its not cheap is it, and I'm only a poor volunteer
bridleway officer!
Have you thought that the BHS (or some other august user group) might be

subscribing, and might not have asked for its full allocation of
cheap(er)
copies? I think you can have Four in total, one full price, three much
less.
        Yep, tried that one as well. Allocation all taken up. Why cant
there be system
        of having set(s) per county between user groups?
        Why are the odds always stacked against us.
Sue

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From: Chris Marsden <Byway@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:52:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Ridgeway Potential TRO

Howard said:-

> think it's OK to let their children drive.  

This is a serious problem affecting our rights.  And speed of 10 or 20 mph
away from pedestrians, less nearer may be OK, but when I guess most
vehicles are going to pass several walkers, 30 or 60mph just because it is
legal, (or more cos it ain't) is understandably going to tar us all with
the same brush.  A 5 or 10 mph speed limit may help limit actual speed to
20 or less, and point out that if you want to drive fast, find somewhere
away from people.

> It should also be pointed out that in the
> summer you will find more Mondeos etc. than 4x4s on some sections. 
Mondeo
> man likes to drive along and find a vacant spot to picnic.
> summer you will find more Mondeos etc. than 4x4s on some sections. 
It's unique properties are being destroyed by the actions of those trying
to chase that uniqueness.    How can you prevent it becoming just another
well made (if not tarred) road?  Probably lack of information of the
thousands of underused and obstructed byways, is one cause.

Perhaps the signs should be rather more forcefull than usual:- NO Vehicles
except permitted:- then the VR notice with the restraint actually detailing
when and how it may be used.  White on blue 1ft x 2ft signs with an
attached A4 VR notice, may be an adequate method of pointing out the
responsibilities.  Co-operation with the Management Team and good-will
could stop that mis-use through ignorance.  Anyone serously flouting the VR
recomendations would then surely find it harder to justify a charge of
'driving without due care' for actions that otherwise would not be illegal.
 (There probably is not a law saying you must not tailgate, but isn't that
'without due care'?)
Anyone know the law ITR?

 
> I usually avoid the Ridgeway like the plague even in good weather.  It is
> just too popular and being a miserable bugger I prefer to lane alone. If
I
> drive along it at all it is only for a few yards to reach the next
tributary
> lane.

A laners laner.

Chris

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From: Chris Marsden <Byway@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:52:10 -0500
Subject: Re: OS Explorers

> Tim and I will be talking, send ALL known examples with NGRs start/finish

> to me please

May I suggest in a common format:-

from / to SO 620 568 to 622 569
Through
Green
Obstructed

SO 470 530 to 472 529
NTR
access to FPs
Usable (?)

SO 468 568 to 470 565
NTR (?)
Residential access
Usable

That's all on Ex 202
The additional info indicates if they are an important At Risk heritage
lane(1), or of little interest (2+3) as byways.

Chris

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From: Chris Marsden <Byway@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:52:06 -0500
Subject: web site

> yes, and some means of access to ROWLR!
> Sue

That is a rather expensive publication. It may be expensive to keep riff
raff like me, and if I may be so bold as to say possibly you ;-) as well,
at bay,  or it is making some one quite wealthy, or the editorial and
distribution costs are high.  Alan makes very readable and factual document
somewhat more for the common, yet sophisticated,  person.

How much of that is the distribution costs,  is there a possibility of a
secure subscription-only web site to view, as an alternative to hard copy,
with much lower distribution costs?  Copyright should not be an
insurmountable problem, BBT or RoWLR could be scanned now, but is not,
(AFAIK), copyright would still exist.   I still think ROWLR would be
prohibitively expensive.  

Chris

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From: "Matthew Reeve & Mel Mauger" <blatchwood@btinternet.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:08:45 -0000
Subject: Re: Was Re: Ridgeway Potential TRO

>You might like to take take along the name and address of a neighbour who
>has also witnessed the activity (for corroboration), and see if they will
>then act (even if only to caution).  If not, make a formal complaint.  They
>might not consider the offence very serious.  But they should at least
>consider the reports which you have made.

>Hugh

Only one house shares the same problem (other two overlooking same field are
always out daytimes) and the two occupants are a little elderly to say the
least and probably can't hear or see the motorbike. I've tried asking but
they haven't noticed anything. If he starts again (stops during the winter)
then I'll press it further.

Matthew
UK, nr Heathrow
1979 2-dr Range Rover 300Tdi

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