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From: "Dave Tilbury" <Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:19:01 -0000
Subject: Candovers
The first of many pages.
~~~~~~~~
Dear Mr Simmons
Wildlife and Countryside Act 1982 s54 - The Hampshire (Basingstoke & Deane
No 13)(Parish of Candovers) Public Path Reclassification Order 1989
I am now in receipt of the bundle containing the objectors submissions
regarding the above Order. I note that I have twelve days to respond to a
document containing over one hundred pages, prepared over a period of some
one hundred and fifty days, and again wonder if the public at large are
receiving a fair deal out of a process created by a well reasoned piece of
legislation.
As Mr Lalonde is an objector to the Inspectors decision, which proposed to
show RUPPs 6, 16, and 21 as Bridleway on the Definitive Map, one is given
to suppose that he is a supporter of BOAT status, yet, on reading the
submission it is clear that the opposite is, in fact, the case. At no
point in the submission does he produce evidence to support his objection,
instead he re-visits matters already covered (and freely admits so at
3.4.1) with regard to those ways the Inspector proposes to confirm as BOAT.
This objection is, therefore, mischievous, as was the unsubstantiated
objection that triggered the second Inquiry, and as such should be
disregarded.
There are notions put forward in the Lalonde submission as fact that are
demonstrably erroneous and misleading. Notwithstanding the above comments
I am compelled to respond to errors in this vacuous document.
Balance of Probabilities: This matter has been decided by Lord Denning and
if we are to convert his word onto figures then we are left with 49 to 51
percent being all that is required to sway a decision. The following
paragraph (3.1.3. in the Lalonde submission) reveals the driving force
behind the objections - history and public rights are expendable where
private gain is at stake.
Unchallenged evidence: Mr Lalonde claims that his evidence was not
challenged at the first or second Inquiry (3.4.5). No doubt the lack of
cross-examination was due to the fact that at the time of the first Inquiry
no one had contemplated that geology was to be used as an objection and so
no preparation had been made for that eventuality. Mr Lalonde was not at
the second Inquiry and so challenge of his evidence was not possible. I
believe it is now established that the continuation of RUPP 1 skirted the
woods and clay cap, passing to the south of Dukes Copse (and the pits) to
join the East Stratton road opposite South Down Lane. A gap in the bank
still exists at this point. If my memory serves me well, evidence of use
was provided at the
~~~~~~~~~~~
Not too rude, eh?
Dave Tilbury
Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
http://www.hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
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From: Chris Marsden <Byway@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 08:42:56 -0500
Subject: Re: TROs in Powys/Cerediginion
Charlie, and Tim, and others interested in Powys.
> Monks Trod still has, as far as I know, a TRO banning vehicles with 4 or
more
> wheels. An extension of this covering all vehicles has been mooted in the
past
A birdie told me on Fri that this might be up for renegotiation perhaps as
a quid pro quo for VR on other routes such as Gt Cantel, we get M.T. back
to 4w. Thanks but no thanks. Who wants to go play in a peat bog? Gt Cantel
TRO vehicle + peds, no exception for L/O, expired Friday. Panic call from
HA (RK) Friday Begging please don't use, very difficult situation etc.
(Edmund Haywood). I now intend using the ex TROd route or the tippexed
route. I'll call him Monday to find out whats up.
Interesting.
Chris
Update,
Just had a 3/4 hr chat with Bob K.
He was under the impression that some routes might be desired on open
moorland where there is less need for worry over the condx the route gets
into. I am concerned that such a move will give ammunition to those that
are opposed to vehicles. It could also condone behavior which we have all
agreed is better left for private sites, thus encouraging the view that it
IS ok on any RoW.
He agrees Lowes and Gt Cantel are excellent examples of how NOT to manage
RoW. (More info available on Gt Cantel direct if requested)
He would like a meeting soon to discuss HoTR, but is leaderless at the
moment due to yet another re-organisation.
However LD (Bob C)are open and fair, BBNP have said the do not want any
vehicles on any unsurfaced road. Thus it is not a good starting point. [I
am concerned that attitude will spill over onto the rest of Powys]
He would like to see a HoTR info sheet available, and that shows
sustainable through routes, and not little NTRs to Fm yards.
We are both concerned at the % open difference might be substantial between
users and L/O (councillors) and Nimbys
He thinks the present VR is unduly negative, and could say where the above
leaflet could be obtained to be more positive or where one CAN go.
He thinks problems are more perceived than actual. [ an unprompted
understatement]
He gets lots of people coming in for info, but thinks most of them are
respectable and does not think the mud-pluggers ever go there. (I think
this may be significant - good mud-plugging roads (row or not) are handed
round by word of mouth in the underworld)
He thinks there is a need for long-term VR but agrees it should be
'imaginative' ie not total
Doesn't see any solution to the widespread Powys problem of undersigning,
RoW sign as DM, HW don't sign!
Confirmed JA funding from CCW re Brecknockshire, awaiting contract sign.
A useful and positive chat.
Chris
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From: Chris Marsden <Byway@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:53:38 -0500
Subject: Candovers
> Not too rude, eh?
A delightful, quintecentially British offering in impeccable taste. I am
eagerly awaiting the next thrilling installment.
BTW what does vacuous mean? OK I looked it up in Thesaurus. Hey that’s
cool.
cj
you didnt slip ol' denning a bob or two for all those rather spiffing
sayings you keep quoting did you?
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From: Chris Marsden <Byway@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:53:32 -0500
Subject: E5221
Peter,
Tony,
15/2/98 I received notification from PAJ Endall, of my '30/1 and subsequent
correspondence'. Has meeting today with 'instructing Dept', to discuss
various outstanding matters will respond asap thereafter.
Posted Fri 12/2 with 26 p stamp, ie not franked! Sounds like he was in a
hurry.
Tony, if you hear anthing more especially from the Parish Council (keep
working on them) do let us know.
Regards,
Chris
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From: "Dave Tilbury" <Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:51:09 -0000
Subject: hey 'kin ho
Now I have heard everything. At the back of the objectors bundle
(Candovers - Hampshire - 3rd bite of the cherry - written reps) we have a
submission from old weasel features, Plumbe) Needless to say he does not
even pretend to address the Inspectors modifications but has a go at the
confirmed BOATs. How, I hear you ask. Via Nettlecombe I reply. What? you
all cry...
In short he is saying that a BOAT is a way that is used mainly by walkers
and riders and that where the use criteria is not met the way cannot be
recorded as a BOAT. He then points out that whilst there were a large
number of motorists and carriage drivers who supplied evidence of use there
was virtually no evidence from walkers and riders and therefore the way
cannot be confirmed as BOAT.
It's not quite that simple but...
ADK, Tim, etc. If required I'll scan as a text doc and forward.
Dave Tilbury
Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
http://www.hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:46:24 EST
Subject: Re: Tim Stevens
In a message dated 09/02/99 19:31:48 GMT Standard Time,
doghouse@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:
<< Tim Stevens has managed to trash his computer (or did it collapse under
the workload?). Its a serious jobbie this time, his HD is partitioned into
C; and D: but the D: is being recognised as a remote drive (his words) and
refuses to play ball. >>
A useful summary. The 4 Gb drive in question reported a size of 283 Kb, and
would not respond to Partition-it, Online Disc Manager, Fdisk, Label,
Scandisk, etc, in any useful way. But the Bios auto-test said 4 Gb. And even
when I had removed the 'problem' there were continuous weirdos going on. None
of this was helped by a duff modem connector or a dying CD rom driver, or a
mother-board which persisted in loading two video drivers, etc.
I now have for sale a 4Gb hard drive, little used (and less use?) and several
hundredweight of diagnostic software (none of which helped much). And, an old
500 Mb drive which I think I knackered, along with its HD controller, by
shorting out something on the board as it slid into the fan...
Particular thanks go to Ian Bod (glass), Ian Davis (MSA), and Alan Morris
(BLRC Norfolk) who each supplied separate keys to the 3d jigsaw, and Mike Dyer
for the above message.
I think my next computer is going to be either a Mac or a PCW.
Cheers, tim
Please excuse me if I ask to see again stuff that was recently sent by e-mail.
In particular, there was a useful listing of Bartholomew dating details (from
Tilbo or Doghouse?) which I would like to see again. I got some 1910-ish Barts
maps for £1 each in Warwick and dating them more exactly would be useful.
Tim
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:46:22 EST
Subject: Re: Comical touches in the rags
In a message dated 09/02/99 19:30:37 GMT Standard Time,
doghouse@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:
<< Wierd innit...we try and keep usage to a minimum over the winter, the rags
glorify it like we dont ever have a spring/summer/autum period which,
p*ss-poor tho' it might be, is better than the winter.
>>
You can go laning at any time of year, but events involving competition,
posing in the sun, selling lots of useful/less gear, all happen in the summer.
Therefore, magazines which are run by thoughtless pratts have laning articles
when there is nothing much else to get wrong. Except laning, of course, which
does not advertise, so it does not matter if they get that wrong too.
Nothing cynical there, just plain fact.
Cheers, tim
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:46:32 EST
Subject: Re: OS Explorers (Reply it is not us!! by the HA)
In a message dated 12/02/99 07:40:27 GMT Standard Time, brian@limb.demon.co.uk
writes:
<< The Highway Authority have not supplied directly any information to the
Ordnance Survey for the production of their commercial mapping other
than dealing with occasional queries that have arisen from time to time. >>
What arrant tosh. The HA supply the OS with DM&S details routinely.
Perhaps Lancs CC have forgotten that Highway = RoW.
Tim
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:46:05 EST
Subject: Re: Garbage Mails (was: Re: Ridgeway TRO PI)
In a message dated 08/02/99 02:03:52 GMT Standard Time,
bod@bod1.freeserve.co.uk writes:
<< Any idea why it should be only your mails that the major thinks are
garbage Chris? >>
Perhaps this 'major' fellow lives in Kent and only thinks he is 'major' ?
Tim
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:46:21 EST
Subject: Re: The Newbury Somme
In a message dated 09/02/99 00:08:27 GMT Standard Time,
blatchwood@btinternet.com writes:
<< 'The only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth.' >>
Tosh, say I. Ruts are caused by accident, not for a purpose, remain open, are
of indefinite length, can vary from an inch or two to a couple of feet in
depth, and are visible in all parts of the country on roads and tracks.
The only difference between truth and tosh is the depth of thought involved.
Cheers, tim
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:46:19 EST
Subject: Re: Babtie
In a message dated 08/02/99 23:40:11 GMT Standard Time,
bod@bod1.freeserve.co.uk writes:
<< I have just found out that a good friend of mine works as a civil
engineer for Babtie. >>
Our problem seems to relate to those who are neither engineers nor civil.
My question would be - when a user group (ie LARA) has devised a free-of-
charge scheme (Vol Restraint) to help manage use of highways, and this scheme
has been endorsed by the Govt, Sports Council, CCPR, CoCo, CLA, etc, why does
BABTIE seek to use its own scheme? Why do they disregard the safeguards LARA
has built into their scheme ?
Cheers, tim
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:46:02 EST
Subject: Re: prosecutions - Herts
In a message dated 08/02/99 01:42:27 GMT Standard Time, Elwyn@ey-
eg.demon.co.uk writes:
<< Regarding RUPP 13. The guy who was taking legal action against the AWDC for
trespass has just dropped it. Excellent News. >>
But only if you regard the AWDC member as the only aspect that matters.
The identical case against TRF members is proceeding.
If it succeeds, the LO will have a declaration that no Veh RoW exists.
So the route is likely to be lost if no further action is taken to 'defend'
rights.
Who thinks the TRF should be left to fight the case alone?
Who thinks that the AWDC member was 'on his own' ?
If this case succeeds, who thinks this will be the only case?
Two further points -
The case was not against the AWDC, just a member of the public who was an AWDC
member.
The case was dropped because of a technicality, as the man they thought was
driving was elsewhere - ie it was not dropped because of any weakness in the
LO argument, or action in defence of the AWDC member based on the status of
the route, etc. That part of the deal is still untested.
So, perhaps exccellent news for the AWDC member, agreed. But for the lane and
the right of AWDC members (etc) to use it, the matter is proceeding.
Cheers, tim
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:46:28 EST
Subject: Re: MP Bennett
In a message dated 11/02/99 17:44:34 GMT Standard Time,
rob@archenland.demon.co.uk writes:
<< Heard the aforementioned Hon Mem on the radio yesterday, blasting on about
the RA's 'Right to Roam' bill. Never answered a straight question, ignored
polite probing with rude rebuttals......
>>
Further to this, and Mike Dyers comments -
This chap is a politician. Ergo, the idea that he should answer a straight
question with a straight answer is a non-starter. If he was that way inclined,
he would not have got the job.
We get the politicians we vote for. Honest ones don't even apply.
There are more productive things to worry about than banging your heads
against this particular brick wall.
Now if he was a member of a specifically anti group, not merely one that is
primarily pro walking and anti motors incidentally, that would be different.
Can we find out who are the 65 MPs claimed to be in an anti group?
You will note that I decline to give an opportunity to quote to any specific
anti-group, or allow them the oxygen of publicity?
Cheers, tim
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:46:14 EST
Subject: Re: Bull bars
Information from the BMF via LARA -
<< Financial Times 27/01/99
CAR SAFETY: EU seeks to ban bull bars
The European Commission is to propose a ban on built-in bull
bars on new cars amid concern that improvements in car safety
have benefited passengers at the expense of pedestrians.
Neil Kinnock, transport commissioner, said the ban on the metal
bars fitted across the front of vehicles would be part of a
package of manufacturing standards he planned to bring forward
in the summer to guarantee higher levels of pedestrian
protection.
He disclosed his intentions while welcoming results of a
Commission-backed study showing improved levels of safety for
drivers and passengers of best-selling family cars.
>>
Cheers, tim
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From: Susan Jeggo <derek.sue@virgin.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:53:04 +0000
Subject: Mud again, loads of it!!
I've had a report about (alleged) 4wd abuse to some paths, (I've no idea
if its caused by public or private agr- so don't shoot me, I'm only the
messenger!) apparently the Parish have complained to County who have
done nowt. Locals now want to gate some ways. There is a local TRF chap
involved, a Mr P., (Tim, has he contacted you?) - some paths may not be
definitive. My immediate concern is to quickly get the surface damage
resolved and calm things down a bit, I seem to recall you have a hot
line or something for this? Please advise.
TIA
Sue
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From: "Rob Smith" <rob@archenland.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:46:51 -0000
Subject: RE: Somme geology was Re: Independent, Sat
Knocked over?
Surely not, it just got tiered of lying, so decide to lie down...
Rob Smith
Mine's the blue 110
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From: "Rob Smith" <rob@archenland.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:46:46 -0000
Subject: RE: OS Explorers (Reply it is not us!! by the HA)
Words like 'sneaky', 'cunning', and wise come to mind, and I'll leave you to
work out to whom they belong...
Nice work Brian.
Rob Smith
Mine's the blue 110
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From: "Rob Smith" <rob@archenland.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:19:34 -0000
Subject: RE: Tim Stevens
I like the look of the I-Mac...
Rob Smith
Mine's the blue 110
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From: "Rob Smith" <rob@archenland.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:19:33 -0000
Subject: RE: TROs in Powys/Cerediginion
I was fairly certain the Monks Trod was TRO'd, but I thought I had better
ask.
Didn't know the other existed, but thanks C&C for the info, it will be
passed on to those that asked.
Rob Smith
Mine's the blue 110
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From: "Rob Smith" <rob@archenland.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:19:32 -0000
Subject: RE: Candovers
Very polite in fact, what's come over you?
like the way you take each bit of Mr. L's statement, and shred it. Me
thinks you've been down this road before. I look forward to learning more
in each of the following days, until Mr. L is left in a daze by the BOAT
side...
Rob Smith
Mine's the blue 110
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From: "Rob Smith" <rob@archenland.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:24:53 -0000
Subject: RE: Babtie
Because they can charge their client HAs for their system, but can't do
likewise for the LARA VR???
Rob Smith
Mine's the blue 110
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From: "Dave Tilbury" <Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:57:06 -0000
Subject: Re: Aerial Photos.
Hants record orifice has a/phs from the 40,s and later. But Hants only.
Dave Tilbury
Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
http://www.hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
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From: "Dave Tilbury" <Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:33:23 -0000
Subject: Re: E5221, OSS response to Warks.
Thank you Peter Gatenby
Dave Tilbury
Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
http://www.hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
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From: "Dave Tilbury" <Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:42:43 -0000
Subject: Re: E5221, OSS response to Warks.
<<I can almost picture the idylic scene ... simply sooper hice, and one's
own
praevate eauld lane leading down to a darling little stritch of river.>>
You takin d' rise art ov us suveners?
And it's not 'down' it's 'dine', as in dine'n ite (no not dining out - down
and out)
Dave Tilbury
Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
http://www.hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
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From: "Dave Tilbury" <Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:11:38 -0000
Subject: Re: Tim Stevens
So how did you cure it? Low level format?
Dave Tilbury
Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
http://www.hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
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From: doghouse@cix.compulink.co.uk (Michael Dyer)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 00:47 GMT0
Subject: Re: RoW User Report Forms
Im starting to get a pile of these, Hampshire and Berkshire, since the
AWDC person doesn't want them at the moment and I'd like a 'remote backup
site' would anyone in Berks/Hants be happy to have copies at their place?
73s and 88s
:-) Mick Dyer (doghouse@cix)
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From: Elwyn York <Elwyn@ey-eg.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 01:04:31 +0000
Subject: Bridleways
Hi
If there is a Bridleway that stretches, for this bit, from a main road to a
river, and an Agricultural Vehicle uses this, is this against the law?
It is in the Powys County, near AberGwesyn (Llanwrtyd Wells)
I checked on the map, it is a bridleway, and I and my freind watched this
farmer struggling up the incline to the main road in a lovely shiny tractor.
Cheers
Elwyn
LR S3 '72 (Very Dented) Lightweight. [47 FL 06]
"Sub Aerodynamic Green Brick" ICQ: 17087824.
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From: doghouse@cix.compulink.co.uk (Michael Dyer)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 01:37 GMT0
Subject: Re: prosecutions - Herts
So the moral is clear...write to your local AWDC National RoW Officer,
tell him that THIS IS A PROBLEM, copy it to the shiny new Chairman.
Tim, does Liz Hurley have the details? Let her loose on it, the AWDC
should be ashamed of this lack of support.
i bet if it had been an AWDC competitive-type-person it would have been a
different story.
73s and 88s
:-) Mick Dyer (doghouse@cix)
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From: doghouse@cix.compulink.co.uk (Michael Dyer)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 01:37 GMT0
Subject: Re: MP Bennett
Tim reckons
<<<<There are more productive things to worry about than banging your heads
against this particular brick wall.>>>>
With respect, I disagree......how do we know what deals he has struck OBO
the Loons whilst wearing these two hats? Anyway, the more he prevaricates
over the straight answer, the more I'll ahve to present to the Whip,
Ombudsman, whatever.
<<<<Now if he was a member of a specifically anti group, not merely one
that isprimarily pro walking and anti motors incidentally, that would be
different.>>>>>>
...Nirvana........
<<<<<Can we find out who are the 65 MPs claimed to be in an anti
group?>>>>>
Informed opinion says no...but do we have _any_ confirmed? mail me direct
if you prefer.
<<<<You will note that I decline to give an opportunity to quote to any
specificanti-group, or allow them the oxygen of publicity?>>>
Well, I think The Loons was a good name for now......
73s and 88s
:-) Mick Dyer (doghouse@cix)
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