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From: "Dave Tilbury" <Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:22:48 -0000
Subject: Re: MP Bennett
Started with a mail to Chidgey. Will follow up with a letter. By tomorrow
the web site news page will be suitably up dated. Might I suggest that
National club sites are also utilised and that hard copy of the original
list of glimmer MPs be distributed at club nights - again some of the more
active are not computer literate.
Dave Tilbury
Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
http://www.hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
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From: "Dave Tilbury" <Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:32:52 -0000
Subject: Re: not RoW
This Land is Our Land was brought to our attention by the chair of Southern
Group TRF some time ago and was quoted recently in B&B. The full text (of
that B&B quote) can be found on my site and makes interesting reading. It
seems that for hundreds of years the people have been battling to keep
their lanes.
Dave Tilbury
Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
http://www.hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
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From: Chris Marsden <Byway@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 03:59:26 -0500
Subject: Re: OS Explorers (Reply it is not us!! by the HA)
> Only true if they mean stock unsold by the OS itself. Stock unsold by
> retailers, even in the middle of the problem area, remained on sale for
moths
> afterwards. The retailer concerned ran a pro-4x4 garage and was therefore
> likely to be a calling point for BOAT-seekers wanting up to date maps.
I did hear a shop in Kington was asked to return stock! Just to put the
record straight. 'Unfortunately' my 'collectors' item had just been
purchased.
cj
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From: doghouse@cix.compulink.co.uk (Michael Dyer)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 99 11:19 GMT0
Subject: Re: MPs & GLEAM
Heres an update, nothing new, just keeping you all up to adte.
1. An MP need not declare membership of an organisation if it is
un-remunerated.
2. The HoC Standards Committee lady will bring to the attention of the
Commissioner the fact that an organisation called GLEAM may be claiming
members who aren't active members.
As far as I can see now, we need to present HARD facts to all MPs who
might be more interested in avoiding being made arses of (its not english,
but YKWIM) and subsequent embarrasment than green-lane issues.
So once again, can ANYONE give me an example of a PI where they have
spouted bullshit, where a newspaper article has been 'written' by a
gloomer and been factually _wrong_ , etc.
73s and 88s
:-) Mick Dyer (doghouse@cix)
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From: Stephen Somers <stephen.somers@virgin.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:30:12 -0800
Subject: Re: OS Explorers (Reply it is not us!! by the HA)
hawker wrote:
> >> OS are expecting authorities to use extremely limited resources to check
> data which in the end makes Explorer sheets commercially viable<<
> no, not the OS, more that the general taxpaying public expect (with right on
> their side) for both these publicly funded/founded bodies to get on with
> carrying out their respective duties {...}
Whilst I do not disagree that the local authority has the responsibility
for maintaining information about rights of way, and that the Ordnance
Survey is the mapping body, I cannot agree that any policy decision of
the OS must, by implication, be binding upon the local authority. It is
clearly the responsibility of the OS to obtain up-to-date information and
to incorporate it on their maps. They may, it seems to me, elect not to
publish any map but, if they do, then the detail on it must be as
accurate as possible.
For the OS to put the onus upon the local authority is like a schoolchild
saying that it is up to the teacher to complete his homework for him,
since he has all the information.
So far as commercial considerations are concerned, if you say that the
local authority has a /duty/ to supply information to the OS without
charge, then the OS must have an equal duty to publish their maps without
charge.
--
Steve Somers (Project Leader)
'75 Land Rover 101" Forward Control, 1-Tonne, General Service
(62FL50 - Royal Artillery/2 Commando)
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From: Stephen Somers <stephen.somers@virgin.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:54:01 -0800
Subject: Re: bewdley/stourport bywayDevil's S TRO
Chris Marsden wrote:
> Any thoughts, particularly the illegality of unregisterable bikes ?
Since they are by definition 'machines' they are presumably subject to
current Health & Safety regulations in regard to their safe operation?
This would include noise levels. Penalties for offences under the Act are
stringent. The enforcing body would be the local authority's
Environmental Services Department, I think, so it would definitely
require a commitment on their part.
--
Steve Somers (Project Leader)
'75 Land Rover 101" Forward Control, 1-Tonne, General Service
(62FL50 - Royal Artillery/2 Commando)
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From: Mike Thomas <miket@sqf.hp.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:02:54 +0000
Subject: Re: Dere Street
Michael Taylor wrote:
> Does anyone know what is happening to the proposals by Borders Council
> to stop up this ancient highway?
I wrote and objected and know of at least one other person who also did.
Neither of us have heard anything and I don't know what has happened -
perhaps it is time to ask about response targets?
Mike
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:08:27 EST
Subject: Re: bewdley/stourport bywayDevil's S TRO
In a message dated 22.02.99 11:40:58 GMT Standard Time,
stephen.somers@virgin.net writes:
<< Since they are by definition 'machines' they are presumably subject to
current Health & Safety regulations in regard to their safe operation? >>
I think the difficulties with this are -
1. H&S only covers 'at work' situations, not pratting about for 'leisure'.
2. There would have to be noise measurements which are notoriously difficult
to make 'watertight' as evidence.
3. The actual rider on an actual day would need to be positively identified.
But apart from that, all good ideas welcome. String the sods up, I say.
Cheers, tim
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:08:30 EST
Subject: A new threat in Cumbria
One of the nicest green lanes I know is called Breast High, a Byway starting
alongside the old A6 over Shap, but taking a more, er, interesting route to
the NE. Recently a motorcyclist using the route had his keys taken by a person
on foot. The keys were reclaimed, but ... The person is believed to be a
local, and more likely to have LO than RA leanings.
Please take note that this can happen here, and carry spare keys, only use one
in the machine (not your house-car-etc as well) hot wire the ignition, etc.
This can be a particular problem if it happens late in the day, without mobile
assistance, and in bad weather. So, be warned, and pass the message on.
Please report any incidents to the Police, and let us know too.
The route may present serious difficulties travelling south after heavy rain,
as the river can become too deep to cross, even with a 4x4. But going north,
4x4s might have difficulty getting up the wet first section of the route.
Whatever you use, and never mind having your keys nicked, this is not a route
I would recommend to the lone traveller.
Thanks
Tim Stevens
LARA mrdo
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From: Mike Thomas <miket@sqf.hp.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:30:39 +0000
Subject: Re: A new threat in Cumbria
TimLARA@aol.com wrote:
> One of the nicest green lanes I know is called Breast High, a Byway starting
> alongside the old A6 over Shap, but taking a more, er, interesting route to
> the NE.
> The route may present serious difficulties travelling south after heavy rain,
> as the river can become too deep to cross, even with a 4x4. But going north,
> 4x4s might have difficulty getting up the wet first section of the route.
> Whatever you use, and never mind having your keys nicked, this is not a route
> I would recommend to the lone traveller.
We attempted it going NE yesterday but failed past the second gate and
before the bend near the top. The surface was very greasy with the
recent rain. It would have been possible by winching but we retreated
and left it for a drier day. The river had risen during the time we were
attempting the pass but I didn't get my feet wet (unlike Saturday).
The track is becoming very rutted with the downhill rut being eroded
further by water running off the hill. Over the pass, on the Tebay side,
a bridge has been washed away and needed some work last time we did this
(in December).
There is one plus point to having problems here and that is the mobile
'phone reception (Cellnet at least) is marvellous as you can see one of
the eyesores from the south side!
Mike
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:40:07 EST
Subject: Re: Dere Street
In a message dated 22.02.99 13:05:32 GMT Standard Time, miket@sqf.hp.com
writes:
<< I wrote and objected and know of at least one other person who also did. >>
That makes three, then, or could I be your one other?
The council is Scottish Borders - 01835 824 000
They say that they intend writing in about a week to all those who have
objected, as some objections may be founded on misunderstandings and so might
be withdrawn.
I asked if they were also doing the same for supporters, but they did not seem
to understand ...
Anyone getting such a letter is asked by LARA to maintain their objection. If
further advice is needed, please ask.
For those not up to speed on this route, it is a section of Dere Street, the
Roman Road from York to the Tweed and on into Perthshire, which branches from
the A1 at Scotch Corner (it might originally have been the A1,
metaphorically). It was started by Petilius Cerealis, and completed by
Agricola (AD 78-85).
Tim Stevens
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From: Susan Jeggo <derek.sue@virgin.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 16:05:48 +0000
Subject: os maps
Recieved to day from OS
Sue J
Dear Ms Jeggo
Thank you for your recent E-mail.
The Ordnance Survey Pathfinder maps are gradually being replaced by the
Explorer series.
The Pathfinder covering Cambridge will be replaced by the Explorer 209
wef
31/03/99. There is no Outdoor Leisure map for this area.
We have a current mapping index available which shows the range of maps
and
the appropriate sheet numbers. If you would like a copy please advise
your
postal address to enable us to send one.
I hope that this information is of use.
Yours sincerely
Anne Patrick
Customer Information Adviser
----------
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From: "hawker" <hawker@poverty.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:02:04 -0000
Subject: Re: OS Explorers (Reply it is not us!! by the HA) - OH YES IT IS!!!
The Highway Authorities are the sole bodies to collate and record info on
highways, as well as PRoW. This info has to be available to the public. The
usual format is often based on OS maps, but need not be so to accord with
the law(LoS, that is), so far as I am aware. It is just that OS maps are the
logical only answer in
the name of uniformity, and clarity.
The OS is a business to sell maps which they produce. I am not aware that
they are required by the law of this country to include certain info, just
that it makes sense (at least commercially) to include info which the public
desire. They therefore do not guarantee the accuracy of that info - see the
disclaimer on every OS map since the year dot. - the info is only there as
best as it can be shown to their ability, and is very much subject to the
whims of the supplying authority as to how much or little is shown. If, for
whatever reason, the record does not show a particular right after all these
years, the HA are not going to spend precious time and resources trying to
get to the bottom of it, and neither are the OS going to extemporise -
that's not their line. The Highway Authorities will be the first to admit
that their records are not up to date - they never could be with constant
moving of goal posts over the last 160+ years in relation to highways - and
they are not going to commit themselves in cases where they may prejudice a
legal issue - and themselves - by so doing.
The accuracy in terms of HA and RoW records is the responsibility of the
Local Govt Body, not the OS. If you were prosecuted on the basis of driving
where you ought not to have been, the HA record is the one which would
matter in your defence, not what the OS put on the map(or even omitted from
the map).
The schoolchild / teacher analogy is not quite right, it is more like the
child demanding the teacher teach him all the lessons, so that he may do his
own homework. And to take it further, everybody is still learning all the
lessons, all their life, even when they finally reach the end of the road!
Not everything is black and white, and nobody knows all the answers,
teachers or govt. bodies, nor me.
Like the agriculture industry in this country, the Councils do whinge a
lot - I worked for them for 32 years - and I only ever knew them to
constantly complain about lack of funding. This conveniently excuses all the
non-performed duties, many of which stem from when granny were a lad.
Richard Hawker
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From: "Ian Boddison" <mbcx4ib1@mail1.mcc.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 16:15:04 BST
Subject: Re: os maps
> Recieved to day from OS
> Sue J
Well that told you a lot didn't it
Cheers,
Bod
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From: "Ian Boddison" <mbcx4ib1@mail1.mcc.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:03:55 BST
Subject: Re: Warks E5221
> The southern end is not the 'problem'. Was the pile of prickly stuff
> completly preventing access? If so it's new. If not it par for the course.
> Vehicular use carries along the old railway line, easy to do in the dusk.
They prevent all access except for walking - and then it is a squeeze
to get past them.
The confusion over route is that the track starts off straight and
then does a right/left onto another track - both run between hedges
and are adjacent and parellel.
Cheers,
Bod
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From: "Ian Boddison" <mbcx4ib1@mail1.mcc.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:31:22 BST
Subject: Re: E5221, OSS response to Warks.
> Others have suggested that the authority is poorly provided with personnel, in
> other words (wait for it .....) it only has a bare and ragged staff...
Thank you for that Tim!
Another corruption is the 'Heart of Warwickshire CAMRA Branch'
newsletter.
It is called:
Beer and Ragged Stuff
Cheers,
Bod
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From: "Ian Boddison" <mbcx4ib1@mail1.mcc.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:02:24 BST
Subject: Re: OS Explorers (Reply it is not us!! by the HA)
> Despite comments suggesting the contrary in other postings, I can't imagine
> that the OS will show the "other routes with public access" information
> unless they receive instructions about that from the HA. Some HAs have
> been far more comprehensive about this than others: Devon springs to mind
It is notable that some counties are being shown with more red dots
than others. Generally they do seem to correlate with the counties
that are less anti-vehicular than others.
Cheers,
Bod
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From: "Dave Tilbury" <Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:08:00 -0000
Subject:
I hear that Babtie are advertising for two RoW Advisers. I really don't
fancy the treck to Reading from here each day, but ....
Dave Tilbury
Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
http://www.hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
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From: "Dave Tilbury" <Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:13:17 -0000
Subject: Re: os maps
You are welcome to cut and paste the following:
The Manager
Customer Information Department ~~~~~~
It may come as some surprise, but I do not often go to the trouble of
asking a serious question when seeking promotional material, nor to I want
promotional material when there is a serious answer to be had.
Dave Tilbury
Dave@hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
http://www.hants-lanes.demon.co.uk
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From: "Ian Boddison" <mbcx4ib1@mail1.mcc.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:06:39 BST
Subject: Re: Maintenance
> I shall no doubt make the appropriate complaints as soon as the
> through route becomes in a poor state of repair, but I am unsure
> about the dead-end.
It is cerytainly a legal possibility but (like s116) it has to be put
bwefore a magistater before the order is made to make the highway
un-maintained.
Note that it still continues to be a public highway with no
difference to the public's rights.
However, if it is not maintainable at public expense then there is
little point in coimplaining when it gets in a poor state unless so
poor as to be unusable an/or very danourous.
Cheers,
Bod
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:50:21 EST
Subject: Re:
In a message dated 22.02.99 19:11:13 GMT Standard Time, Dave@hants-
lanes.demon.co.uk writes:
<< I hear that Babtie are advertising for two RoW Advisers. I really don't
fancy the treck to Reading from here each day, but ....
>>
Please let me have particulars. I am due for a day in the barmy south.
And remember that Babtie work in other areas, too - they are sniffing round in
Kent, for instance. Just wonderful, that would be, a job in Kent, where I
could liaise with nice chaps like Ian Davis and Steve Neville and Ian
Roscoe...
Mischievous as ever
Tim
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:50:17 EST
Subject: Re: Warks E5221
In a message dated 22.02.99 18:59:50 GMT Standard Time,
mbcx4ib1@mail1.mcc.ac.uk writes:
<< The confusion over route is that the track starts off straight and
then does a right/left onto another track - both run between hedges
and are adjacent and parellel.
>>
According to the map I was sent, the E5221 runs alongside and to the W of an
old railway line at its SW end. (It was clearly diverted to this line when the
railway was built across its original line). Are we sure that the 'other
track' is not the rail-bed being used in mistake for the 'real' highway?
Cheers, tim
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From: alan kind <alan@highwayman.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:48:32 +0000
Subject: Re: Dere Street
>For those not up to speed on this route, it is a section of Dere Street, the
>Roman Road from York to the Tweed and on into Perthshire, which branches from
>the A1 at Scotch Corner
all together now... OH no it doesn't! The general line of the Ai 9at
least until relatively recently) is Leeming Lane, the long straight bit
from Boroughbridge to Scrote Corner, and this is Dere Street. Read
'Agricola's Road into Scotland' by Jessie Mothersole, circa 1925 and
very commonly in libraries. A reminder of gentler days (more tea,
Vicar?)
>(it might originally have been the A1,
>metaphorically). It was started by Petilius Cerealis, and completed by
>Agricola (AD 78-85).
I do hope Petilius Cerealis was not genetically modified.
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From: TimLARA@aol.com
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:33:11 EST
Subject: Early Day Motion
I am advised that 50 or so signatures on an EDM is no-where near enough to
raise any hopes of it proceeding. It normally needs getting on for half the
house (300+ in other words).
Anyone taking up this matter with their MPs might like to ask them to identify
problem lanes in their (ie your) constituency, as you would like to be fully
aware of them so that problems can be resolved. And if they cannot do this,
could they consider whether they might have been led astray by propaganda, and
whether they might reconsider their support of the EDM.
It is also possible to add an amendment to an EDM, seeking signatures for that
instead, even to the extent of contradicting the original. If your MP is
really clued up he might do this. Do ask.
Cheers, tim LARA
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From: doghouse@cix.compulink.co.uk (Michael Dyer)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 99 21:32 GMT0
Subject: EDM
So what are the timings of the EDM? It was put forward in Oct?/Nov? 98,
signed by 52 MPs. What is next in its glorious little timetable? How long
have we got, and whats happens next?
73s and 88s
:-) Mick Dyer (doghouse@cix)
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From: Chris Marsden <Byway@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:26:39 -0500
Subject: Visit #2 S Warks DC
Oh lets pop into see the highways Map. Lets try S Warks District Council,
in S o A.
"Sorry, we don't keep it."
How about a peek at the Def Map?
"Sorry we don't keep that. You'll have to go to Warwick." They say it's a
nice place in Winter.
I thought District Councils were supposed to keep the Map for their area
available?
There has been a deafening silence to my request on 5/2/99 "Whare can I see
the LoS?"
Chris
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From: Chris Marsden <Byway@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:26:42 -0500
Subject: Visit #1 OS Best before date? E5221
Visit 1 to garage, see New (to me) OS map 151. Also alongside, still for
sale old 151, don't hey have a best before sell by date?
Why change from a pituresque piccy on front to th ugliest building in the
Midlands the R Shakespeare Theatre S upon A?
Shows ORPA as we now know it is. If you're thinking of buying it, don't
bother.
Lots of diamonds but precious few red dots:-(
Barford St Michael SP 4332.7 Black Pecked (BP) now has dots as well :-)
Aynho 5034.7 BOAT where was BP :-)
4860.7 White in Warks, BOAT + ORPA in Northants. Old map was blacked
pecked and a white.
Equine or Porcine Aviators?
Todenham 2436.2 was an isolated BW no access on the earlier map, now UCR
to BW then still stops just short of High Furze. Do the horses fly or is
it the flying pigs again? Perhaps it's called Pegasus Lane?
Oh look there's E5221! Pity about the Red Dots. None! Warks a bit late
in getting info to OS? Or Someone being a bit selective with the facts?
Warks is the main county on the SoA map, yet no ORPA. What a con!
Old map stock still being pedalled. New stock not providing what it claims
to show? Come on OS is this the pits?
Chris
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From: Chris Marsden <Byway@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:26:40 -0500
Subject: Re: More West Berks volutary restraints
> I have offered to Babtie the use of LARA signs, and confirmed that they
have
> an application form with our current adress etc. Nothing has arrived yet.
> NB to avoid doubt, I have not recommended that they are obeyed or
ignored, I
> make no recommendation about them.
> Cheers, tim
Breedon 22 has a Do-it-youself WBCC sign. Bit superflous, seing the
bollards, Mound of soil, dumped car. It looks a right mess. A big mound of
soil 100 yards into byway is used as a 2w and 4w challenge.
The provocative signs say to "prevent further surface damage" IF there IS
any, who caused it?
Chris
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From: Chris Marsden <Byway@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:26:36 -0500
Subject: Visit #3 E5221
North side. The double gate from Nimbys car-park towards river Chained,
Padlocked, Wired together. 94" Not quite 10 ft. Oh well lets not complain
about that.
Other end of garden, makeshift gate still wired up. Even if removed it
would only be 67" - LESS than 6ft. The stream in middle of course of road
can now be seen more clearly as it is not in flood, beatly cut with
excavator. Bed about 8" below water level. River Alne 12 " solid stone
(at least at edge!)
So WHEN are WCC going to ensure the gate is unpadlocked???????????
>>>They also hinted* that the Marks family are being pressured to withdraw
their
offensive s116, and if so, we offered to manage the route with
consideration
of VR and waymarked gates in the fences instead of complete removal. As a
concession, which could be removed the instance a lock and chain was within
6
feet of any gate.<<<<
S Side. Travellers gone, site clean. Substantial neat pile of sticks in
middle of lane. Bod you said there was a TRO nearby. Where? I could not
see any.
>>>However, there is currently a pile of prickly branches dumped in the
enterance to the lane.
Also there is a nearby single track road (tarmacced) that is closed
under RTRA84 s14. I do not know if the two lanes are related but
they are VERY close together.<<<
Chris
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From: Chris Marsden <Byway@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:26:38 -0500
Subject: Visit #4 Gt Alne
Lets see how well the VR is working at Gt Alne.
What VR?
SP 112 597 Eastwards - No signs. Still flooded, An agressive pattern tyre
used it a couple of weeks or so ago.
Westwards, VR sign correctly positioned. Same tyre pattern Ruts 10" deep.
Drive round to other end, 102 597, No VR sign, not even laying down in
repose!
Walk along track with appreciable difficulty. Distinctive signs of
tractors - and 5" ribs. Same sand pattern tyre observed before, probably
from that date. Rut depth 14". No L/R diff scraping marks. Where the tyre
marks are still visible, the tread is very clear.
Then the drone of a 200Tdi coming up. Oh lets see who/what. A 90
struggling up, wheels spinning, Winching, little choice. I has a chat with
them. From soufa Burminghum. 4 blokes in one vehicle. Had no maps with
them, so obviously knew the same roads well. In any club? No, were in LRO,
but they didn't want to get muddy.
I say I think there's VR on this route further up. "No dont think so,
There is on the other side, so we havn't used that. Well we will see how
far up we can get." They went another 100 yards or so, then turned round,
making more mess of course.
Now that was a well high sprung vehicle, chunky tyres, but after they had
passed there was NO tread pattern remaining. Spinning wheels do not leave
tread marks! Whatever had been the previous vehicles, it had cleared those
14" ruts without touching the centre, and without wheel spinning. Some big
wheels!
So VR signs ARE needed (until WCC put some stones down). Perhaps two at
each end, one on a post, the other tied to a tree when possible. There
were signs that the FP Waymark posts had been torn down, possibly to get
some stuck vehicle out of a rut? Same could have happened to the VR posts.
It was not leisure vehicles that caused this, but it does attract the great
unwashed to come out and play. It is not acceptable for walking or riding
as it is now.
Perhaps a s56 to get some action in the spring?
Chris
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