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From: "HENRY STAGE"<henry.stage@smtp.cnet.navy.mil>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:24:49 -0600
Subject: greek peak put to rest

     Nige, well put.  I never pointed fingers at anyone because, quite 
     frankly, I had no idea who it was and, more importantly, it does not 
     matter.  I figure we all live in glass houses, more or less, and I 
     will be the last to start throwing rocks at anybody lest my own house 
     shall fall.  "Our less responsible bretheren" includes, me, you, and 
     everyone else who has ever taken thier beast off the tarmac.  
     Somewhere, sometime, we have all probably been somewhere we were not 
     100% sure we should have been.  Add my Mea Culpa's to the top of the 
     list.  
     
     The most important thing, besides I need a another beer, is IF YOU 
     WANT TO SEE GREEK PEAK HAPPEN AGAIN, BEAR A HAND MATES!!!!
     
     I had a great time. I really enjoyed meeting all the people from 
     everywhere.  
     
     Bartender, is that beer coming today, or what??!!!
     
     cole
     Hefelump mahout

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[spamkill: eudoramail\.com input: %s]	 Return-Path: <mmguy@eudoramail.com>
[spamkill: eudoramail\.com input: %s]	 From: mmguy@eudoramail.com

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From: "Adams, Bill" <badams@usia.gov>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 9:12:23 -0500
Subject: C.A.V. is for...

My sweetie was kind enough to bring home from the library a Diesel 
handbook which shows, among many other odd and wonderful mechanical 
thingamajigs, the only cutaway diagram I've seen of our favorite diesel 
distrubutor pump (courtesy C.A.V. /Joseph Lucas, Ltd.) as used on LR 2a 
engines. The illustration has been extremely helpful.
Anybody know what the C.A.V. stands for?

Bill Adams
3D Artist/Animator...Softimage/Hal
'69 Buick LeSabre Ragtop
'66 Land Rover S2A 109 Diesel Station Wagon,
'81 Honda Goldwing 1100 Standard:
"Practicing the ancient oriental art of ren-ching"

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From: "A. P. \"Sandy\" Grice" <rover@pinn.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:44:19 -0500
Subject: GP, again

Russell G. Dushin <rgdushin@blackcat.cat.syr.edu> wrote:

>Nor do I care to put all blame on the organizers here, even if the maps
>they provided weren't the greatest.  They did the best they could, and
>certainly could not be expected to police the entire neighborhood.
>Maybe next time, if there is a next time, the organizers should 
>find out precisely what trails are open and what aren't and mark
>them clearly.  One would think they could get some help from
>the GP folks on this (who might also be able to apply a little
>bit of local political pressure...).

Some of the best information was provided by one of GP's cat drivers, a
lift operator in the winter...that was a little "after the fact" though.

>Some blame may even lie with the propety owners themselves.  In NYS you
>have to post your property with a sign every fifty feet that has
>your name AND address on it.  Few know this...and fewer comply, including
>certain state agencies.

Indeed, New York state has some different rules.  Apparently, as the DEQ
guy expalined it, *all* trails are closed unless expressly posted as open....

>That the organizers shelled out bucks to the DEC was, in my opinion, not
>an admission of guilt, but a way to get the DEC off their backs at the
>cheapest cost (lots cheaper than defending it all in court).  Hopefully,
>the organizers feel the same way, and aren't seeking to place blame
>on folks who may have (unknowingly?) strayed beyond bounds, where
>ever the hell the "bounds" were...

That's it exactly...DEQ, priced their fine right a "nuisance level".  Any
higher and we would have contested it, but several attorneys that I
consulted said that it would cost more to fight it.

>Granted, I am ingnorant of the specifics of the DEC charges, so
>if someone cares to point out that people tore up properly posted
>property I'll stand corrected.  I'll also know I wasn't a guilty
>party.

Apparently, the head local DEQ ranger went out at the request of one
landowner.  The DEQ guy also happened to live nearby.  So he staked out
this one trail Sunday morning with his newspaper and coffee.  If you didn't
meet the ranger face to face, it wasn't you.

That said, I did hear of several other instances where "tread lightly"
wasn't followed - getting partially stuck on purpose and throwing up great
roster-tails of mud - and another where someone knocked down a posted
signpost.  And then there was the vehicle load of liquored-up teen yahoos
(6 or 8 in a D-90) who drove down that steep slope on the far right.. it
didn't look so steep from the bottom, but with 30 years of skiing behind
me, let me tell ya', it was bloody *steep* - you had to climb it using your
hands as well.  One little mistake, and we would have had to retrieve the
bodies with a garden hose.  A few folks with this kind of mindset deprive
all of us of future off-road possibilities.  It is also the kind of stuff
that gives the organizers ulcers....  Cheers

  *----jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary----*
  |                                                   |
  |             A. P. ("Sandy") Grice                 |
  |    Rover Owners' Association of Virginia, Ltd.    |
  |     Association of North American Rover Clubs     |
  |    1633 Melrose Pkwy., Norfolk, VA 23508-1730     |
  |(O)757-622-7054, (H)757-423-4898, FAX 757-622-7056 |
  |                                                   |
  |   (original owner)        (pre-production)        | 
  *----1972 Series III------1996 Discovery SE-7(m)----*

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From: Vel Natarajan <vel@enteract.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:20:25 -0600
Subject: Re: Air compressor question

I just wanted to thank everyone for all their suggestions and
information on finding a compressor.  I've got a lot of useful info to
take with me when shopping now.  I plan to take my time and find the
right one in my price range.

Rgds,
Vel
88" SIIA

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From: SJH <SHARDING@SCHULTE-LAW.COM>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:54:00 -0800
Subject: alls_ate

Alex Maiolo wrote:
	Allstate is all sunshine and smiles until you have a claim

could not agree more, and they are my insurance co.  I'll be dropping   
them just as soon as I can get a better rate elsewhere - I rear ended   
someone a couple of years ago.  They are especially bad on first party   
claims (claims by you on your policy).

simon harding
portland OR  

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From: Dale Smith <smithdv1@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:05:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Defender station wagons

Adrian, this month's LROI had a nice article on a company that does
130 SW's. That seems like it would hold a lot of equipment plus
people. If you asked them nicely they might even galvanize it for you,
since the article said most of them were special orders anyway. You
could squeeze a trip to billing in on company time(somebody would have
to pick it up anyway, right?)......;-).
Probably not a totally pratical idea, but you would have more input
into how it was put together.
Cheers
Smitty

---Adrian Redmond <channel6@post2.tele.dk> wrote:
Due to some interesting loophole in the Danish tax system, film
 companies, along with schools, handicap organisations and rock
 orchestras are able to buy new vehicles which are classified as busses
 without paying the otherwise exhorbitant import duties.
 My company has a VW LT35D under this rule, but being 11 years old, I am
 considering replacing it with something more modern. And I have
 discovered that a LR Defender 110 Station wagon is also acceptable
under
 these rules.
 Before leaping head first into a splinter new 300Tdi Defender SW, I
have
 a few questions which others on the list might be able to answer?
 How comfortable are the second row of seats? Can these be replaced with
 seats similar to the front seats? Is there room to move the second row
 of seats back an inch or two (I will be removing the rear bench seats
to
 make room for a equipment compartment for my film gear) thus giving a
 little more leg room.
 How reliable is the 300 tdi motor? Is is easy to work on if I want do
do
 my own routine repairs and maintenance?
 Why hasn't LR discovered the beuty of the fully galvanised chassis yet?
 (I have just ordered one today for my 109, and at 13000 kroner it's a
 snip - shouldn't this be standard?)
 What are the standard or recommended wheel rims / tyres for these
 creatures?
 Is permanent 4WD better/different to Series 2/4 wheel drive? How?
 Do defenders corrode just as much as their predecessors? (I have
already
 consiodered buying a splinter new Defender, and before driving it on
the
 road, stripping it completly and galvanising everything in sight, but
 that's another story...)
 How does a moderatly loaded D110 station wagon with 5 or 6 passengers
 and a pile of film gear perform in comparison to say a VW
 transporter/Caravelle or an Astra or Espace minibus? I am thinking of
 long haul motorway driving.
 Thanks for any advice you folks may be able to offer...
 Adrian Redmond

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From: Dale Smith <smithdv1@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:23:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: My Apology

Oh well......
To quote an old boss, "If you are not ready to deal with someone's
opinion, don't ask for it...and if you do ask for it, don't b*tch
about it if they tell you something you don't want to hear"
Smitty
(Another Fosters over here please)

 Well judging by the lack of response you and the rest of us
"reactionary old farts" have succeeded in driving the young gentleman
(prat?) away. I hope you all feel proud of yourselves. I for one am
truly mortified by our less than compassionate handling of this
affair. Yes, yes I am ......... now where the
 hell did I put my beer down? 
 Bill Lawrence
 Albq, NM 

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From: Zaxcoinc@aol.com
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:46:00 EST
Subject: Re: My Apology

In a message dated 2/24/99 10:28:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, urbncby@sgi.net
writes:

 > I for one am truly mortified by our less than
 >compassionate handling of this affair. Yes, yes I am ......... now where the
 >hell did I put my beer down?
   Maybe it was because some (most) of us have the occasional adult beverage
 whilst reading the list.  You alwasy see the 'real' person after they've
 had a few.  Now, where did I put MY beer...
  >>
Not really, I think it is that most of the correspondents on this list have
already had experiences with persons who might approach and be excessively
polite or "mush-mouthed" and then do their best to piss on your neck.  If you
might recall, this guy wanted to do amazing changes and engineering and etc
but didn't have the capacity/skill to fab his own motor mounts.  Blowin smoke
as it were.  (or might yet be)

I will say, that nobody got their dander up until the prat did.

Zack Arbios

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From: SJH <SHARDING@SCHULTE-LAW.COM>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:53:00 -0800
Subject: my apology

all these references to beers?  this thread has driven me to scotch.   
 neat.

land rover content:  i made an offer on a 1970  IIA swb a couple weeks   
ago and had heard nothing from the seller.  Then yesterday I was sitting   
in my office and happened to glance out my window (wishing I was   
elsewhere, frankly) and saw it crossing a bridge here in portland!   
 Struck by an extreme case of roverlust (i think it runs in the family),   
I called the owner and upped my offer without first having any response   
from the owner other than the passage of time.  I learned later he had   
intended to call me to decline my first offer (supposedly).  If this   
lasts much longer, this bidding agianst myself could drive the price   
quite high!

foolish?  of course.

hopefully, within a week or so, I will be an owner.

simon harding portland OR  

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From: Adrian Redmond <channel6@post2.tele.dk>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:22:33 +0100
Subject: Defender 110 CSW

My dealer/mechanic delievred a demo County Station Wagon today for us to
play with and measure - nice vehicle.

The 300TDi is the engine - I see that the importer has several of these
- probably because they want to get shot of them before the TD5 comes.
Seems like a nice engine to work on.

I don't like the metallic paint - difficult to respray myself - so IF I
buy one, it will be standard dark green,

It is a pity that the old sturdy bits of a Series are missing -
galvanised cappings, handles on the back, hand throttle. They should be
standard.

I am disappointed with the lack of legroom on the second row of seats -
I don't see that raising the seats and pushing them further back up the
wheel arch slope will gain enough wiothout severly limiting headroom for
the vertically advantaged. The real solution would be to pull the tub
and rebuild thge slope a few inches further back. But who wants to split
a splinter new vehicle (I already have a 109 split to 2000 parts)

I removed the ront seat bottoms to check underneath. Funny little
battery - why is it inside the car instead of under the bonnet (manual
says that battery produces explosive gasses under normal conditions -
seems silly to put in in an enclosed space). I am not sure that this
battery is big enough for cold weather starts when the engine is 5 years
old - any experience on this one. It doesn't seem easy to fity a much
larger battery. (I use Varta's 110Ah as standard).

Under the middle front seat there is a box of Lucas/Rover electrics and
a funny little switch with a rubber nipple on it - what does this do? Is
this some form of anti-theft device?

I am ambiguous about the value of a chassis which is not galvanised and
is covered win a thin coat of crud to start with - my instint from 16
years of Series rovering says heavy coat of paint or galvanise -
preferabnly both. I guiess the correct strategy is to buy the wagon,
then after say 5 years, when it begins to rust but before its more than
surface rust to strip the car and galvanise the chassis. Not this week
anyway!

Well - I'm playing with it, crawlæing underneath (Do catalysators
actually work on diesels - I didn't know that) finding faults and
getting ideas for a new adventure. Maybe I'm hooked, but the fam,ily and
staff were impressed with the driving, the comfort 8except for 2nd row
seats) the acceleration and the handling. This could be our new film
wagon.

Adrian Redmond

CHANNEL 6 TELEVISION DENMARK       (Adrian Redmond)
Foerlevvej 6  Mesing  DK-8660  Skanderborg  Denmark
telephone (office)                  +45 86 57 22 66
telephone (home)                    +45 86 57 22 64
telefacsimile / data                +45 86 57 24 46
mobile GSM (EFP unit)               +45 40 74 75 64
mobile GSM (admin)                  +45 40 54 22 66
mobile NMT                          +45 30 86 75 66
e-mail                       channel6@post2.tele.dk
      Visit the "Native Experience" website at 
          http://www.channel6.dk/native
Contact the "Native Experience" film unit in Alaska
          telephone   +1 (907) 230 0359
          e-mail      channel6@alaska.net
Visit our homepages!                www.channel6.dk

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From: "Russell G. Dushin" <rgdushin@blackcat.cat.syr.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:44:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: alls_ate

Simon wrote:
***
Allstate is all sunshine and smiles until you have a claim 

could not agree
more, and they are my insurance co.  I'll be dropping them just as soon as
I can get a better rate elsewhere - I rear ended someone a couple of years
ago.  They are especially bad on first party
claims (claims by you on your policy).
***

I was once hit by someone who had an Alls_ate policy.  Was deemed to
be 100% their fault by them and by my policy holder (State Farm).
Nonetheless, alls_ate screwed me.  I'd had the car towed to my work
place one half mile from the scene (saving them $$$ on storeage) and a few
days later received a letter from them saying they wouldn't pay for
storeage beyond the next day!  They had, by that time, admitted 100%
fault, but hadn't decided on a settlement figure.  When I called about
this they told me it could be towed to my home or I could give it
up for salvage...I called every salvage operation within 2 hours drive
and the best I could get was $250 (in '94 for a '84 BMW 318i).  I
sold it.  About two weeks later they forked over a check for $1200,
which they said was value (~$2200) less salvage (~$1000)!  I gave them
a rash of shit for this and, after threats to write to various 
agencies they split the difference and payed me an extra few hundred
bucks.  The car *was* in fine shape before the accident (although it
was high mileage) and I'm quite certain I could have gotten at least
$3K for it at the time....I ended up with a little over half that and
a big headache.

I will never, ever consider using Allstate for any of my insurance
business, and I try to convince all my pals to do likewise.  State 
Farm, on the other hand, has always been good to me.

r"you're in bad hands with ..."d/nige

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From: Clinton Coates <ccoates@GOLDER.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:26:00 -0800
Subject: silicon cap bolts

Adrian has an excellent idea....
     
There is a cheap and simple way - especially with bodywork struictural 
bolts which are exposed to the weather.
     
First coat the bolt with copper grease. Then mount the part and bolt up. 
Wipe the excess grease off, and dab the protruding thread with silicone 
mastic - this hangs on forever - and seals the copper grease in. Next 
time you have to............time I dismantle, I am surprised to see
how many bolst still have their silicone cap on.
     
     This sounds just like the thing I might do.  Tho' the cap bolt idea 
     might be a bit more elegant  ;-)
     
     However, anything that comes from you concering bolts, rust, 
     rustproofing and general-make-my-landy-last-in-salty-winter-country I 
     pretty much take as gospel.  I am constantly surprised at how well 
     bolts that I have greased up 3 years ago and are exposed to road crap, 
     salt, mud etc still come off really easily, even without any other 
     special considerations.
     
     EVERYONE GREASE YER NUTS BEFORE RE SCREWING!!!!!!!
     
     Clinton

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From: "Adams, Bill" <badams@usia.gov>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:26:42 -0500
Subject: Sports Illustrated

How come nobody has commented on the pic of Rebecca What's-her-name 
wildly cavorting on the coachroof of some lucky shmoe's 110 in the BVI? 
BTW, don't even THINK about the mushroom punch at the Bomba Shack...btdt, 
could'nt get up the next day.

Bill Adams
3D Artist/Animator...Softimage/Hal
'69 Buick LeSabre Ragtop
'66 Land Rover S2A 109 Diesel Station Wagon,
'81 Honda Goldwing 1100 Standard:
"Practicing the ancient oriental art of ren-ching"

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From: jason.apelquist@us.pwcglobal.com
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:30:30 -0500
Subject: Purchasing a used '95 Discovery

I have a question and figured I would get a straight up answer from some
knowledgable Rover folk.  I'm looking into purchasing a '95 Land Rover
Discovery,  5 speed manual, w/ 32K miles from a dealership.  I've heard a
mix bag on the Discovery's in regards to being lemons.  I was wondering if
any of you could give me any crucial advice, or pointers to look out for if
I decide to purchase this vehicle.  I just want to make sure I don't dump a
lot of money into a dud!

Thanks alot,
Jason
The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
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this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any
computer.

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From: "James G.Wolf" <elvenwood@whro.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:22:43 -0500
Subject: Bolts

>All this talk of sockets and wrenches not quite fitting. Why don't you
>dedicated LROs have your own set of Whitworth tools? Why doncha ha? why?
>  John and Muddy

Easy. because we like a CHALLENGE!!! It's not fun if it's not hard. Brings
out the creative mind to figure out another way.

Jim Wolf 

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From: Bob Frey <frey@pvr.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:32:56 -0800
Subject: Re: alls_ate

On 2/25/99 8:54 AM SJH wrote:

>Alex Maiolo wrote:
>	Allstate is all sunshine and smiles until you have a claim

Years ago my wifes car was totaled by an Allstate insured driver. We went 
back and forth with Allstate over the valuation...they were offering half 
of what the car was actually worth. I finally called my insurance 
company, Geico. They agreed with my valuation. I asked them for advice on 
how to proceed. To my surprise they asked me if I would like them to 
handle the matter! Geico wrote me a check for the entire amount the next 
day and took over the nasty job of collecting from Allstate. I never 
heard from Allstate again.

This also cured my guilt about returning Craftsman tools that I've broken 
through pure abuse...Allstate is (was?) a Sears company. 

Bob Frey

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From: "Russell G. Dushin" <rgdushin@blackcat.cat.syr.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:03:46 -0500 (EST)
Subject: La Bomba Shack

Bill paid his dues:

**
BTW, don't even THINK about the mushroom punch at the Bomba Shack...btdt,
could'nt get up the next day.
**

I KNEW better!!!  Was *well* educated in college (and high school,
too, for that matter)...

He who cannot measure the dose is in for one helluva ride...

What a nut-zo place.

r"Did you see God?"d/nige

ps Rover content...we rented an early 80's D90 there with a leaky
clutch master, on the advice of lro lister Allan Smith from St. Lucia
(hey!). At least it wasn't the brake master that was leaking...

pps Did you discover Netties?  Best BBQ whatever on earth.

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From: RoverNut@aol.com
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:31:22 EST
Subject: Re: Phatom 109

In a message dated 2/25/99 7:10:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, owner-lro-digest-
ltd@playground.sun.com writes:

<< > I don't know if anyone's brought this up yet:
 > The 109 outsold the 88 when it first came out in Blighty because it was
 > officially a 12 seater. I'm not sure if this was with the 2-door (2 or 3 in
 
 Alex,
 
 I don't know if the seating capacity had any direct effect on sales as
 you seem to suggest. The L-R has always (until recently) been regarded
 as a working vehicle, and you can get far more work done with the 109
 than with the 88. Work like loading (goods as well as people), lugging
 heavy loads in inhospitable terrain, etc. 
 
 Regards
 
 Paul Oxley >>

Sounds fair, but I got my information from one of my LR history books (James
Taylor?), LRO magazine AND a the tour director at the Solihull plant. The tax
part is definitely true and I'm pretty sure about the sales numbers. Obviously
none of this would have affected US sales.

ALex Maiolo
49 S I
95 Disco

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From: RoverNut@aol.com
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:43:43 EST
Subject: Re: Roll-over bent oven

In a message dated 2/25/99 7:10:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, owner-lro-digest-
ltd@playground.sun.com writes:

<< Anything can be made to roll over, but the LR is definitely not the worst
in
 its class.  >>

 Actually they are probably one of the best, which was my point when I started
the thread. I was (possibly erroniously) under the impression that Defenders
failed the roll over test in theory. Nevermind the fact that they don't really
roll over that often, they kind of flop on their side and given their
lowwwwwww center of gravity, it takes a hell of alot to get hem to do THAT.
Nevertheless, I was told (again, possibly erroniously) that all 4wd vehicles
have to be able to safely roll over X amount of times and suffer Y amount of
damage, and the Defender didn't make it, thus the addition of the roll cage.
It took the place of bracing that should be in all cars sold in the US. Same
goes with the cage on the soft-top 90s. 
The guy who owned my old IIa managed to roll it over 3 times down a steep hill
and walked away from the whole deal with little more than a stiff neck. I'm
sold on their safety. AT least as much as anything save Saab, Volvo, MB, et.
al. 
Could be an urban legend, but it sounds reasonable. I don't own any Defenders
anymore so it doesn't matter. Just passing info along.

Wishing you an entirely upright experience,
Alex Maiolo
49 S I
95 Disco

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From: John Cranfield <john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:08:42 -0400
Subject: lucky break

Hi All, This more for your amusement than anything.
My trip home from Winter Romp was an easy one and uneventful. I arrived
at the Ferry terminal just on time and there was a space inspite of my
not
making a reservation.
The next weekend I was asked the accompany a couple of other trucks
exploring a long unused trail that is reputed to be a good challenge
with large rocks and swamps so naturally I went along.
It turned out that there many trees across the trail and since it was
cold
and there was another 4x4 run on the same area that day we turned around
and headed out. On the way out I had to put both of the other trucks up
an icy hill. These were a full sized Bronco and a modded Nissan.
We tracked down the other group a few moments before the only other
winch
equipped truck rolled on a failed hill climb. I was called on to rescue
the 
upside down truck and dragged it up a bank back onto the trail in a few
minutes.
The hill was then clear for all to climb and we did so with varying
degrees of difficulty. A little further on we all stopped for lunch and
then continued with me leading the way. At this point we were only 1/2
an hour to the highway so it was decided that I lead the group to
another trail. 
I had been back on the pavement about 5 minutes when there was minor
thump some where in the drive train and I gently coasted to a stop.
A look underneath revealed nothing and it seemed to be the transfer case
causing the trouble. Anyway it was easy to get a volunteer to tow me
home
and the whole group followed right into my driveway.  So I just sat in
old Muddy and about 10 helpers pushed her into the shop.
Needless to say I felt extremely grateful that this had waited until I
was so close to home. I was however wondering where I would find parts
for
the all helical low speed box.
I wasn't long in pulling it out to see what was wrong. You can imagine 
my relief to discover it was the clutch disc which had failed in an
unusual way and was rotating round past the anti chatter springs and in
the process making the most expensive grinding sounds. 
So my spare clutch disc is no long hanging on the wall and old Muddy 
is being returned to good health.
John

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From: "Wise Owl Innovation Incorporated" <wiseowl@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:22:11 -0800
Subject: Re: lucky break

Ive had that Happen John - sign of an el-cheapo clutch disc! Ray

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From: Michael Carradine <cs@landrover.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:11:31 -0800
Subject: 109 taxes and tariff

:><< > I don't know if anyone's brought this up yet:
:>> The 109 outsold the 88 when it first came out in Blighty because it was
:>> officially a 12 seater. I'm not sure if this was with the 2-door (2 or 3
....
:>In a message dated 2/25/99 7:10:24 AM EST, Paul Oxley  writes:
:> I don't know if the seating capacity had any direct effect on sales as
:> you seem to suggest. The L-R has always (until recently) been regarded
:> as a working vehicle, and you can get far more work done with the 109
:> than with the 88. Work like loading (goods as well as people), lugging
:> heavy loads in inhospitable terrain, etc. 
....
:At 05:31 PM 2/25/99 EST, ALex Maiolo writes:
:>Sounds fair, but I got my information from one of my LR history books
:>(James Taylor?), LRO magazine AND a the tour director at the Solihull
:>plant. The tax part is definitely true and I'm pretty sure about the
:>sales numbers. Obviously none of this would have affected US sales.

 12 Seat capacity of the 109 5-doors had large tax advantages in the
 UK and was certainly a motivation or mitigating factor in the purchase
 price of the vehicles, spurring on sales.  Incidentially, seating
 capacity of the D110 and D90  result in an advantage in US tariff.
 Land Rovers pay 2.5% duty versus 25% tariff on common pickup or work
 trucks.  Don't know about you, but saving 22.5% duty is significant.

-Michael Carradine
 1950 80", 1972 88", 1989 RR

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From: Adrian Redmond <channel6@post2.tele.dk>
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:45:20 +0100
Subject: Rusty ramblings

Gosh - sometimes these bl€€dy Land Rovers make me angry!

Forget the heritage crap about it being a marque that was designed on a
shoestring in a steel rationed empire dissolving postwar Britain, and
forget the modern crap line about Rover having invested millions in
better productions methods to bring the heritage up to date - let's talk
about cars instead.

I have spent the evening wirebrusing the paint and crud of 23 years from
the heavy cast parts of my 109 front axle - swivel house, stub axle,
axle house, brake backplate and so on. On the other side of my workshop
stands a brand new D110 CSW the like of which I am thinking of buying,
which I have loaned to demo for a day or two. There's the contrast.

If the heritage is so damn good, why didn't they discover years ago,
that if a car is so heavily overdimensioned in mechanical terms that it
will last 30 years (which my front axle has) then why not finish the job
so that it also last 30 years looking good. Steel catings could be
galvanised or metalised, bodywork could be put together so that it wont
corrode (for example, aluminium corrodes a lot less when it is mating
with galvanised/metalised steel than with bare steel).

OK I hear the cryptics say - no car manufacturer is interested in their
products lasting forever - that may be true, but it is short sighted and
denies the basic facts of Land Rover ownership for the past 50 years.

Solihuill's bread an butter customers are not the enthusiats like us who
8most of us) buy a second hand vehicle and bash the hell out of it),
their pasture has always been the military, and large state owned
institutions like police, civil defence, utility companies, radiophonic
corporations, railways, forestry commissions and the like - organisation
who run their Rovers until the mechanical parts - especially the drive
train, brakes and steering are worn out or out of date, and then sell
the lot and buy new ones. Built in obsolesence doesnt really figure -
for example wouldn't the military now be replacing their old SIII's and
SIIA's due to mechanical wear even if the chassis was galvanised instead
of being a veritable rust garden?

Because Land Rovers last 20+ years for institutional users - over three
times the age of other vehicles, it would make good sense for the
manufacturer to go the whole hog, and build a vehicle which lasted -
period.

Why be satisfied with a wagon which last forever, if simple parts shake,
rattle and roll off after a year or two.

The Defender, as the bearer of this heritage towards the new millenium
(after which it may or may not survive) is a good example of this
lacsadaisical attitude at Lode Lane. Metallic paint? What's the point
when the fixtures are held om with anodised screws which will rust in
six months. Upholstery? Whats the point when the carpet flaps and will
work loose when the first wellysole full of clay gets between it and the
rice paper floor panels?

The big question is - how did it get this bad? Why is it that a truck
which can, and often does last two generations under hard, dirty and
thankless working conditions, was allowed to be defaced by a crowd of
design yuppies whose heritage-horizon never reached beyond next months
sales figures.

Having rebuilt (and often redesigned) the construction of four Series
Land Rovers, I am tempted - sorely tempted, to attempt the same with a
Defender straight of the factory line - buy it, and treat it as a 30
year old frame up rebuild - strip it lovingly, put all the bolts and
plastic bits in plastic bags, and start all over again - galvanise the
chassis, galvanise or matalise all steel parts like axles, hubs and
springs, rust proff the mount brackets which seem to hold the many parts
of the motor together, redesign all the tub and cab fixings so that
dismantling doesn't need six pairs of hands holding spanners which don't
fit the dirty, rusted, crudded up anodised nuts anyway, and redesign the
trim.

OK you ask - who's this know all who thinks he can do it better. Me! I
answer - like many of us on the list, I have - with previous rebuilds -
proven that i am willing to use ten times the amount of time, care and
energy building my car than was invested in any original product from
the factory.

Maybe - to satisfy us few simple hearts who love these trucks - LR
should introduce two new option packages - A. the build it yourself
package - entire car arrives in bits, numbered and indexed in a big
packing case, you build it yourself. Tools, drawings and tips are
provided. (It can't be that difficult to build a new vehicle with clean
working parts if you can build a 26 year old one where every part has to
be stripped and cleaned, rethreaded and painted and reassembled. B. The
Anti-yuppie package - all flossy extras like carpets and metalic paint
are removed, instead you get heavier floor deck plates, rubber cladding
on doors which will last a year or two longer, galvanised steelwork,
stainless steel nuts, biolts, brackets and fittings, and no fancy
Defender stripe on the side. Available colours - green, green, or green.

Both of these above options should be chaeper than the standard station
wagon, because most of the expensive trimmings are left out, and the
labour is provided by the customer.

I have nothing against dentists and accountants driving to the gymkhana
in their yuppie metallic rovers, unless pursuing these customers results
in the total destruction of a vehicle, the heritage of which is built on
more than vinyl and micatallic paint. Given that every car manufacturer
worth their salt is able to field a four wheel drive wannabe lookalike
with airbags and stereo, I fail to see the point of chasing the same
customers if one at the same time ignores and alianates those users on
whom the marque has been based for five decades, and for whom there is
hardly an alternative product that comes within a buckshot of the ideal
working landie.

So before Lode lane throws the baby out with the bathwater, get real,
get back to basics, and understand what the heritage in fact represents.
Then sieze the day...

<Rant mode off> I guess I'll buy the Defender, but I'm just as excited
about the new chassis for my 1976 109 which arrives next week!

Happy Rovering,

Adrian Redmond

          http://www.channel6.dk/native

	[Attachment  removed, was 1 lines.]	

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From: Clinton Coates <ccoates@GOLDER.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:13:00 -0800
Subject: Adrians call to arms

     Right on Adrian!
     
     I seem to recall an April fools from a couple or three years ago that 
     LR was selling CKD defenders in kit form.  Apparently the factory was 
     swamped with enquiries....
     
     I think you have hit the nail on the head though. Land Rover whines so 
     much about how much the labour costs are to produce their 90s and 
     110s.  However, I don't think they would be willing to go 'downmarket' 
     anymore as they seem to be willy nilly running towards the high end 
     market everywhere.
     
     I have been giving serious thought to rebuilding my 109 on an ex 
     military 110 chassis (these UK military rigs have less ameneties than 
     my 1961 109).  However, after thinking it through, I came to the 
     conclusion that that was a hell of a lot of extra work to get a bit 
     more steering lock, weaker front end, slightly cushier ride and disc 
     brakes.  Another friend of mine went through the whole thing and was 
     as far as setting up a spec sheet, lining up parts and was going to 
     get a local BC lr guru to build it for him.  It would have been really 
     nice too
     
     The guy in question (Alan Simpson) built a custom 140" crew cab in 
     1997 that is absolutely beautiful.  More room in the rear seat than a 
     130" and it has a full 6' Hi Cap pickup box.  However, it would have 
     cost him 30 grand.  After all the iterations and versions, he has 
     bought a really nice BJ70 with the 4cyl diesel.
     
     *However*.  I think the way to go if one wants to to the 110 kit thing 
     is.  Find a good ex UK mil 110 with clean body and frame.  Import it.  
     Steam clean/power wash the crap out of it.  Go over all the nuts and 
     bolts with WD40 or other preferred mystery goo.  Remove bolts that 
     want to go, and presuade the rest with Mr. Angle Grinder.  Rebuild 
     from scratch.  THe theory is, why pay big bucks to LR to put together 
     a yup mobile that you are just going to tear apart again.  Trust me, 
     if you can do what you have done to 4 series rigs, you will have *no* 
     problem with the ex mil 110s.  You might also consider obtaining a 
     rolling chassis, find a rear ended wreck to steal the front end from 
     and build from there instead.  Or.....
     
     Or, lets find out when the next CKD shipment is going out and hijack 
     it.  I'm in.  Anyone else?
     
     Arrrrrrrrrr matey!
     
     Clinton

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From: Allan Smith <smitha@candw.lc>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:38:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Adrians call to arms

At 18:13 25/02/99 -0800, you wrote:
>     Right on Adrian!
>     I seem to recall an April fools from a couple or three years ago that 
>     LR was selling CKD defenders in kit form.  Apparently the factory was 
>     swamped with enquiries....
>     I think you have hit the nail on the head though. Land Rover whines so 
>     much about how much the labour costs are to produce their 90s and 

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 13 lines)]
>     anymore as they seem to be willy nilly running towards the high end 
>     market everywhere.
Yes - but - CKD units were first completely assembled, then disassambled,
(like the grasshopper in that robot movie) -
going through the labour-intensive process twice  rather than avoiding it
and puttings the bits in a box at the start.
Allan

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From: William Leacock <wleacock@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:45:19 -0500
Subject: 

Alexx writes:-  I don't know if anyone's brought this up yet: The 109
outsold the 88 when it first came out in Blighty because it was officially a
12 seater. I'm not sure if this was with the 2-door (2 or 3 in the front, 5
down each side in the back, or the 4 door (3 in the front, 3 in the back
seat, three down each side behind  the back seat).  Anyway, it was in the
same tax bracket as a small bus, so the extra pounds it cost up front were
MORE than made up in yearly taxes and the delivery charge.

 In the UK in the sixties  the 12 seater station wagon ( 2 rows of three at
the front and two rows of three down each side in the rear ) was classed as
a small bus and was exempt from purchase tax, this made it cheaper than
either the 10 seater station wagon or the 7 seater (88) so the 109 12 seater
outsold the other station wagons, the standard 88 was the best seller, since
it was classed as a commercial vehicle and was also exempt from the purchase
tax. The 7 and 10 seater SW's were classed as cars and were subject to
purchase tax. This all changed circa 1971 with the abolition of purchase tax
and the introduction of Value Added tax ( VAT ) at 7 1/2%.
Bill Leacock  ( Limey in exile ) NY USA.
 88 and 109 LR's and 89 RR 

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From: "Faure, Marin" <Marin.Faure@PSS.Boeing.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:41:23 -0800
Subject: Re: US 130's???!?!?!

From: "billyjoe bodean" <billyjoebodean@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:54:11 PST
Subject: Re: US 130's???!?!?!

>Yah no, you didn't strike me as the Ford pickemup truck driving type.
Butt I guess I wuz wrong.  Now youse runnin with the big dawgs!
You runnin swampers on that truck?  I'm running Vipers on mine!

Sorry, but my Ford F250 Supercab is 2wd and absolutely stock even to 
the 300cu in six.  The only options are a second gas tank, sway bars, 
larger radiator, 4-speed "granny first gear" transmission, and limited slip 
differential.  It's tan with a black interior, a combination Ford didn't 
offer at the time but as they had tan paint and they made a black interior 
for other exterior colors, they managed to do it.

__________________
C. Marin Faure
faurecm@halcyon.com
marin.faure@boeing.com
  (original owner)
  1973 Land Rover Series III-88
  1991 Range Rover Vogue SE

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From: "Faure, Marin" <Marin.Faure@PSS.Boeing.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:54:39 -0800
Subject: Re: Importing a Defender 90

From: CIrvin1258@aol.com
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:40:35 EST
Subject: Re: Importing a Defender 90

In a message dated 99-02-23 12:33:03 EST, you write:

<< No, they list the model number.  A Defender 130 actually has a 
 wheelbase of 127 inches, but the model number is Defender 
 130.  They require proof that the model number is what it 
 actually is.  They don't just write "Ford Pickup" on a registration, 
 they write F150, F250, F350 or whatever.  If you call a vehicle a 
 Defender, they're going to what to know which Defender, a Model 90 
 or a Model 110 (both of which were imported legally to the US).  If 
 you say, "Oh, it's a Model 110," the State Patrol is going to want to 
 see where it says Model 110 on the paperwork, and the licensing folks 
 are going to want to see a Model 110 VIN  that falls within the batch 
 of 110 VINs that were imported to this country.  So without resorting 
 to being illegal (and very, very clever) you're not gonna get a D130 
 registered in this state.  Maybe some other state, but not this one.
 >>

>What a bunch of jerks! In Kalifornia, you simply tell them it's a Defender,
and unless they ask which one, it's no biggie. All they really want to know,
is the body style (in relation to wether or not you get commercial plates).

Interesting.  In Washington, we think Californians are a bunch of jerks, at 
least the ones who move here.  I guess the ones that stay in California 
are okay....:-)  But if California doesn't require a State Patrol inspection of 
every car before it can be registered in the state, that could make the whole 
thing much easier.  The problem is that the State Patrol folks here know their 
vehicles, particularly in the greater Seattle area where there are tons of 
Discoveries and Range Rovers running around, and a fair number of Defender 
90s.  So they know a Defender from a Discovery from a Range Rover.  In fact, 
when I moved here in '79, the SP inspector who checked my Series III knew 
exactly what it was when I drove into the station.  That doesn't mean they all 
do, but like I said, they have a habit of asking the right question at the 
wrong 
time, and if you don't have the right answer at the right time, the vehicle can 
be 
impounded on the spot.

__________________
C. Marin Faure
faurecm@halcyon.com
marin.faure@boeing.com
  (original owner)
  1973 Land Rover Series III-88
  1991 Range Rover Vogue SE

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From: "Faure, Marin" <Marin.Faure@PSS.Boeing.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:11:19 -0800
Subject: Re: PCV theory...

From: Vel Natarajan <vel@enteract.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:38:01 -0600
Subject: Re: PCV theory...

On Tue, Feb 23, 1999 at 09:18:54AM -0800, Faure, Marin wrote:
> >While I removed all the 
> emissions equipment from my Series III shortly after buying it new in 1973, 
> I did retain the PCV as it's an effective way of removing the fumes and 
> vapors from the crankcase.

>What emissions eqpmt did it come with originally?  Was the reason they
were removed strictly for performance?  Just wondering.

As there was no longer a Land Rover dealer in Hawaii in 1973, I purchased my 
new Series III  "mail order" from a dealer in the San Francisco Bay area. 
Whether the fact that the vehicle was a "California car" made a difference 
back in '73 as far as emissions equipment, I don't know. 
 
But in addition to the PCV, my Series III had an exhaust gas return valve which 
was connected via a stainless steel pipe to the first section of exhaust pipe 
under the 
driver's seat, and a throttle prop, the most annoying thing ever invented by 
man.  The 
purpose of the thottle prop was to prevent the rapid closing of the thottle 
plate which 
could result in a very high vacuum in the intake manifold which could pull 
unburned 
fuel off the sides of the manifold and cause the engine to run rich for a 
moment.  Its 
effect was exactly as if you eased off on the gas instead of simply removing 
your foot 
from the pedal.  It was a real pain in the ass, and not the kind of thing you 
want on 
a vehicle you're using off-road.  I don't think cars use throttle props 
anymore, but 
it was a fairly common emissions "solution" back in the early '70s.

I took it all off (except the PCV) mainly because I had to do all my own work 
on the 
vehicle, there being no dealer or knowlegable LR mechanic in Honolulu at the 
time.
The throttle prop with its little vacuum servo and the vertical EGR assembly 
got in the way of doing anything useful around the carburetor, so I tossed 
them.  As to 
performance increase, removing a rudimentary emissions system from a 70 
horsepower 
tractor engine isn't going to make any difference in the performance 
whatsoever.  I did it 
purely to simplify things in the engine bay.

__________________
C. Marin Faure
faurecm@halcyon.com
marin.faure@boeing.com
  (original owner)
  1973 Land Rover Series III-88
  1991 Range Rover Vogue SE

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From: "Barry" <betr11@excite.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:53:48 -0500
Subject: Big break!

Start your own 1-900 business!

People are making $$$ week, after week in the 1-900 business.  We'll
teach
you all of our "incredible secrets that will take your new exciting
business to a whole new level!

It's The Simplest and Most Exciting Business You Could Ever Start!

*You'll use our "state" of the art equipment!
*You'll use our "Live 1 on 1 Psychics" & "Chat Line" girls!
*You'll use our incredible Date Line program(s)!

[spamkill:   Quick payouts. input: %s]	 No chargbacks! 
[spamkill: \?subject= input: %s]	 reply to: 
mailto:megagreen@usa.net?subject=brochure

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From: Dixon Kenner <dkenner@fourfold.org>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:41:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: GP Funds.

Scott C. Wickham Jr. wrote:

> heard someone ran off with all the cash.  Misinformation or what?

	Ottawa Valley Land Rovers (OVLR) holds the Canadian portion of the
GP receipts.  OVLR published an accounting of the Canadian portion of the
GP event in the November 1998 newsletter (page 11), and again at fiscal
year end with all of the OVLR financial accounts in the January 1999 issue
(pages 6 and 7).  OVLR sent off both its and the Canadian portion of the
ANARC accounts to its auditor in early January. 

	Rgds,

	Dixon

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From: "Peter Hope" <phope@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:42:48 -1000
Subject: Re: Importing a Defender 90

>But if California doesn't require a State Patrol inspection of
>every car before it can be registered in the state, that could make the
whole
>thing much easier.

As I understand it though, the vehicle would never be able to legally pass
the smog check in CA.  The check engine numbers and stuff right?
Pete

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From: "Peter Hope" <phope@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:45:32 -1000
Subject: Re: PCV theory...

Marin,
my Aloha Rover is also a California native.  It's a 70 IIa and it had the
PVC and a charcol canister and a lucas am radio(tiny little thang)
Pete

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From: DNDANGER@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:04:23 EST
Subject: Re: My Apology

In a message dated 99-02-25 12:49:56 EST, you write:

 Not really, I think it is that most of the correspondents on this list have
 already had experiences with persons who might approach and be excessively
 polite or "mush-mouthed" and then do their best to piss on your neck.  If you
 might recall, this guy wanted to do amazing changes and engineering and etc
 but didn't have the capacity/skill to fab his own motor mounts.  Blowin smoke
 as it were.  (or might yet be)
 
 I will say, that nobody got their dander up until the prat did.
 
 Zack Arbios
  >>

Yeah I think you've got his number. He's probably back trying to impress the
16 year old girls in the chat rooms with the volume and profanity of his
messages, never realizing that most of the 16 year old girls he's talking to
are 50 year old males, some of whom probably invented the profanities he uses
so poorly. I fear he is doomed to a life of frustration. Ah, life is GOOD!

Bill Lawrence

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From: DNDANGER@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:08:31 EST
Subject: Re: my apology

In a message dated 99-02-25 13:04:02 EST, you write:

 hopefully, within a week or so, I will be an owner.
 
 simon harding portland OR   >>

And you will be doomed. HAAAAAH  HAAAAAH another lost soul for the fires. 

Bill (anima perdido) Lawrence

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From: DNDANGER@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:18:07 EST
Subject: Re: Bolts

In a message dated 99-02-25 16:30:55 EST, you write:

 Easy. because we like a CHALLENGE!!! It's not fun if it's not hard. Brings
 out the creative mind to figure out another way.
 
 Jim Wolf  >>

Also brings out the blood from the knuckles.

Bill Lawrence

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From: DNDANGER@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:45:20 EST
Subject: Re: Rusty ramblings

All good points but of course you know the answer to your questions. It's the
money. Everything you said makes sense from the craftmanship point of view but
every point also would add cost, and with the price of the things scraping the
top of the range their new customer base is reasonably willing to pay it's
just not feasible. You spoke of being willing to spend 10 times as much time
as the factory doing the work, but labor is the major portion of the cost of
the vehicle. Would you be willing to pay 10 times as much for the vehicle and
then have your local government slap you with a tariff based on a large
percentage of the cost of the same vehicle. The only vehicle which is actually
comparable, in my opinion, to a LR is the Mercedes-Benz Gelandewagon and they
cost over 3 times as much as a Defender in the US. They have a very limited
and exclusive market. LR could not survive with such limited sales.

Bill Lawrence
Albq, NM

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From: urbncby@sgi.net (Scott C. Wickham Jr.)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:50:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: GP, again

> And then there was the vehicle load of liquored-up teen yahoos
>(6 or 8 in a D-90) who drove down that steep slope on the far right..

  A bad apple will ruin things for the rest but, a drunken fatality  would
probably put a stop to things all together.  I personally did'nt see the
teens, or the ranger in the woods.  I was confused as to what was ok to run
and what was'nt.  The dirt road I was on Fri. was loaded with 'private
property' signs and I did not stray.  I did find some trails the next day
on one of the organised rides though.  If help is needed, how about a list
of things that can be done by out of state clubs posted on this list by
those who did it last time.  We have a SMALL club here, Fort Pitt Land
Rover Group, but we are dedicated.

  Later..

   Scott C. Wickham Jr.
     Pittsburgh, Pa.
     1972 Ser III
     Zebra truck
     

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From: CIrvin1258@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 01:01:50 EST
Subject: Re: Importing a Defender 90

In a message dated 99-02-25 22:53:32 EST, you write:

<< But if California doesn't require a State Patrol inspection of 
 every car before it can be registered in the state, that could make the whole
 thing much easier.  The problem is that the State Patrol folks here know
their 
 vehicles, particularly in the greater Seattle area where there are tons of 
 Discoveries and Range Rovers running around, and a fair number of Defender 
 90s.  So they know a Defender from a Discovery from a Range Rover.  In fact, 
 when I moved here in '79, the SP inspector who checked my Series III knew 
 exactly what it was when I drove into the station.  That doesn't mean they
all 
 do, but like I said, they have a habit of asking the right question at the
wrong 
 time, and if you don't have the right answer at the right time, the vehicle
can be 
 impounded on the spot.
 >>

They do ---- depending on what you tell them as to how you aquired the
vehicle: If you say "why yes Mr.DMV Man, I just imported a bunch of pieces and
put them together, now I want to register it.", then you're in very deep kim-
chi, and they'll look the truck over with a microscope! (VIN, brakes, lights,
etcetera, etcetera...)

On the other hand, if you tell them "It's been sitting in my backyard forever
- I lost the paperwork/can I apply for duplicate paperwork?", then they'll
look at the truck enough to verify that the numbers you give them are correct.
(maybe also to put a value on it)

Or, if you tell them "I bought this truck, but all I have is a bill of sale,
and I want to register it in my name.", then usually, they'll never even look
at it. If they do, then again - it's just to verify the VIN number. (maybe to
put a value on it - if the selling price seems too low)

Here, there's soooooooooo many cars, they basically only want money at the
DMV: they don't care how a car gets here, so long as you're willing to pay the
registration price (and they DO nail you on a out-of-state registration on
newer vehicles).

Charles
(NOTE: above info is for entertainment purposes only)

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From: CIrvin1258@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 01:03:18 EST
Subject: Re: Importing a Defender 90

In a message dated 99-02-25 23:44:19 EST, you write:

<< But if California doesn't require a State Patrol inspection of
 >every car before it can be registered in the state, that could make the
 whole
 >thing much easier.
 As I understand it though, the vehicle would never be able to legally pass
 the smog check in CA.  The check engine numbers and stuff right?
 Pete >>

...not on a diesel - they're exempt! NO smog test required. (wink wink, nudge
nudge...)

Charles

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From: CIrvin1258@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 01:08:30 EST
Subject: Re: Purchasing a used '95 Discovery

In a message dated 99-02-25 16:10:27 EST, you write:

<<  I'm looking into purchasing a '95 Land Rover
 Discovery,  5 speed manual, w/ 32K miles from a dealership.  I've heard a
 mix bag on the Discovery's in regards to being lemons.  I was wondering if
 any of you could give me any crucial advice, or pointers to look out for if
 I decide to purchase this vehicle.  I just want to make sure I don't dump a
 lot of money into a dud!
 >>

I've heard that the 5-speed was a "warranty nightmare" for dealers, though
I've never heard anything specific regarding what the problem may have been.
My lawyer has one, and he's as happy as a pig in s&#t with it.

There is a drive coupling on the driveshaft, and I've been told that it goes
south, but to eliminate this problem, you simply convert to a u-joint from
another year Disco - problem solved.

Other than that, I've never heard anything bad about them.

...anyone, anyone...

Charles

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From: James Hiller <jhiller@ameritech.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 06:34:46 -0500
Subject: Defender 90 sunroof breakage

Has anyone else had problems with the factory sunroof breaking while
in difficult off-road conditions.I have had two shatter and was
injured by falling glass . While LRNA replaced the roof at their
expense,I question whether a sunroof belongs on an off-road vehicle.
Anyone else have the problem?
                               Jim Hiller

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